Quality of Education in China? Overnationalism?

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solarz

Brigadier
Most adults have a arrogant attitude towards kids, that translates to overly ambitous goals for education. Like we pretend we should be teaching children about morality. It is paradoxical. To us, a moral person is someone who made a choice to do the right thing. There is no way one can be moral without choosing to be moral. Therefore, education about morality should be education about making choices. However, we judge kids to be incapable of making choices. So, "teaching children morality" normally entails forcing kid to act the moral choice their parents and teacher had made. The epitome of that model of teaching is the infamous "say you're sorry" in which we force kids to adopt our moral view but resulted apprently in teaching kids how to use lies to appease social order.

To withhold some aspect of the world from children for the reason that "they won't be able to understand" is a expression of our adult arrogance. I don't dispute that a child won't understand politics or war or sexual relationship. but the question is do we, as adults, understand these things? I don't think we do. At least I don't. I accepted them as parts of human existance and I have no doubt that my next generation would have to accept them too. So, why pretend that we know all the answers? why judge and oppress our children and make them less of a human being? why not give them the decency of honesty.

The best education is the honest education. The world is a flawed place, human seldomly live up to their moral ideals, most of us are self-interested beings trying to navigate a precarious landscape in search of a better life. If we understand our place, and we are thinking realistically, we'd conclude the highest moral we can hope to "teach" our children is to be humble(by being humble oursalves). That's why I dispise high moral ideals like peace, love, alturism and self-sacrfice being indoctrinized into children. These are just words for them. One would learn the value of peace if he/she had saw the reality of war. So, realistic war movies and news about war are the best materials for teaching peace. Let them see how human flesh being blown into pieces, how human dignity are shreded and trampped, that would make them far more "peace-loving" than giving them some abstract on the value of peace.

I agree with your premise, but disagree with your conclusions.

The fact is, very few people are capable of critical thinking. If you doubt me, just look at how popular religion is.

Now I have no doubt that there are religious people out there who chose to espouse their beliefs because they took the time to understand those beliefs and agree with them. It's just that I've never met one.

The vast majority of religious people are religious simply because it makes them feel better to have those beliefs. I remember speaking to a girl and we happened to talk about her religious beliefs. When I mentioned that I don't believe in any god or religion, she asked, "but how can you tell good from bad without religion?".

Human beings are social animals. The evolutionary trait of "herd mentality" gave us a better chance for survival than everyone thinking for themselves and potentially breaking up the tribe. Therefore, critical thinking is actually fighting against millennia of evolutionary pressure.

If we tried your approach toward education, most people would have no idea what to think, and would fall prey to the first person who offered them "easy answers" to life's questions.

Critical thinking is a skill, just like swimming. You can't just throw a child into a swimming pool and expect him to start swimming. And just like any other skill, critical thinking needs to be based on a set of axioms that one has to take on faith, at least at first. It's only when you begin to master a skill that you can start examining the basic axioms.
 

ahadicow

Junior Member
I agree with your premise, but disagree with your conclusions.

The fact is, very few people are capable of critical thinking. If you doubt me, just look at how popular religion is.

Oh I have no doubt that, but I would chanllege you: Why is that? why so few people think critically? is that a problem of nature or nurture? I honestly do not know the answer. Ideally, I'd like to think everyone and anyone possess the innate ability to chanllege the worldview they were presented with. It is the society and its clever "education system" that, instead of foestering critical thinking, did their worst to chip it away.


Human beings are social animals. The evolutionary trait of "herd mentality" gave us a better chance for survival than everyone thinking for themselves and potentially breaking up the tribe. Therefore, critical thinking is actually fighting against millennia of evolutionary pressure.

In evolutionary terms, Herd has advantages and disadvantages. So we found social species and solitary species. within species, there are individuals more and less social. If being social and susceptable to herd mentality grant a universal evolutionary advantage, than critical thinkers should, by all rights, be extinct and we shouldn't be having this disscussion right now.

Also I find it is troubling to liken a society to a herd or a tribe. Herds or tribes are bound by common genes, a society, on the other hand, is bound by shared values. You don't need any form of thinking to be a vessal of a genome. But you do need the ability to think, rather critically, in order to accept a set of values as you own.

If we tried your approach toward education, most people would have no idea what to think, and would fall prey to the first person who offered them "easy answers" to life's questions.

That is exactly what I wish to accomplish. In my opinion most people should have no idea what to think, they should admit to themsalves and others that they know rather little, that their understanding of the world is rather shaky, that their lives is a work-in-progress. I think their mental health would be greatly improved if they do that.

Alas, we a have a culture of "knowing". A culture that like to boast "expertise" and "know-how" but afraid to admit "uncertainty" and "mistake". It is especially prevasive in professional world. What this attitude often led to is disaster, scandal, and insensitivity to human suffering but I degress.

Once you can admit your ignorance, you won't fall prey to "easy answers" because you would appreciate the hardness in achieveing true knowledge. That's how I laugh at the idea that the live's questions can be answered by a couple hundreds pages book. I don't have any clue to the real answers, but I at least know it is not that simple.

Critical thinking is a skill, just like swimming. You can't just throw a child into a swimming pool and expect him to start swimming. And just like any other skill, critical thinking needs to be based on a set of axioms that one has to take on faith, at least at first. It's only when you begin to master a skill that you can start examining the basic axioms.

You talk about faith. But faith can not be taken for granted. The only way to make faith is to build trust. The only way to build trust is to be honest. Do you trust teachers who don't practice what they preach? and if you don't trust teachers, why would you have any faith in anything they say is the universal truth? I suppose if you can have only saints as teachers, "moral education" would actually work, but as far as we know, teachers are not saints.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
Oh I have no doubt that, but I would chanllege you: Why is that? why so few people think critically? is that a problem of nature or nurture? I honestly do not know the answer. Ideally, I'd like to think everyone and anyone possess the innate ability to chanllege the worldview they were presented with. It is the society and its clever "education system" that, instead of foestering critical thinking, did their worst to chip it away.

In evolutionary terms, Herd has advantages and disadvantages. So we found social species and solitary species. within species, there are individuals more and less social. If being social and susceptable to herd mentality grant a universal evolutionary advantage, than critical thinkers should, by all rights, be extinct and we shouldn't be having this disscussion right now.

Also I find it is troubling to liken a society to a herd or a tribe. Herds or tribes are bound by common genes, a society, on the other hand, is bound by shared values. You don't need any form of thinking to be a vessal of a genome. But you do need the ability to think, rather critically, in order to accept a set of values as you own.

Humans are physically weak. We may be smart, but a wooden spear doesn't help much against a sabre-tooth unless you have a few buddies backing you up.

It doesn't matter that society does not share common genes, the human mind was shaped by millennia of tribe-based socialization. A successful tribe can only have one (or a few) leaders, while all the rest have to follow orders. This evolutionary pressure is why most people are "sheep".

That is exactly what I wish to accomplish. In my opinion most people should have no idea what to think, they should admit to themsalves and others that they know rather little, that their understanding of the world is rather shaky, that their lives is a work-in-progress. I think their mental health would be greatly improved if they do that.

Alas, we a have a culture of "knowing". A culture that like to boast "expertise" and "know-how" but afraid to admit "uncertainty" and "mistake". It is especially prevasive in professional world. What this attitude often led to is disaster, scandal, and insensitivity to human suffering but I degress.

Once you can admit your ignorance, you won't fall prey to "easy answers" because you would appreciate the hardness in achieveing true knowledge. That's how I laugh at the idea that the live's questions can be answered by a couple hundreds pages book. I don't have any clue to the real answers, but I at least know it is not that simple.

People believe what they *want* to believe. That's what you are missing from your hypothesis. You are assuming that people prefer knowing the "truth", when really all they want is to feel good about themselves.

Humans have an innate desire to feel a part of something bigger, and to find purpose and meaning in their lives. People don't like to feel ignorant, and they don't like admitting their ignorance. They are also lazy. All this combined explains why most people are so ready to believe in simple answers about the purpose of life.

You talk about faith. But faith can not be taken for granted. The only way to make faith is to build trust. The only way to build trust is to be honest. Do you trust teachers who don't practice what they preach? and if you don't trust teachers, why would you have any faith in anything they say is the universal truth? I suppose if you can have only saints as teachers, "moral education" would actually work, but as far as we know, teachers are not saints.

Faith and honesty have only the faintest relation to each other. Trust is not built on honesty, it's built own relationships. A child trusts his mother because she is his caretaker, not because she is honest. School kids trust their teachers because they are also caretakers. People trust policemen and doctors because they're authority figures.

Moral education, religious or patriotic, fail not because they're simplistic, but because the students stop at the simple answers. You can't become a successful scientist by just reading textbooks. You have to go out and do your own experiments and draw your own conclusions. The same principle applies for morality.
 

JsCh

Junior Member
Critical thinking....
All human are mortal. Socrates is human, therefore Socrates is mortal.
In order to justify living, Socrates must chose his "poison" (actually the Greek literally chose one for him, or is it Socrates chose to "poison" himself?)

“The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.”
“The unexamined life is not worth living.”
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
“I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only make them think”
“Wonder is the beginning of wisdom.”
“To find yourself, think for yourself.”
― Socrates

Did Socrates really said those things? Anyway seem to me someone like Socrates's poison.
 

ahadicow

Junior Member
Humans are physically weak. We may be smart, but a wooden spear doesn't help much against a sabre-tooth unless you have a few buddies backing you up.

It doesn't matter that society does not share common genes, the human mind was shaped by millennia of tribe-based socialization. A successful tribe can only have one (or a few) leaders, while all the rest have to follow orders. This evolutionary pressure is why most people are "sheep".

it's a weak analysis. You only look at the advantagous side of living in a herd to support your theory. I can just easily build imaginary scenarios where living in a herd is bad for suvival to support a theory that humans are, by evolution, anti-social. When we dig up primative human skeletons, we didn't find all that many died of sabre-tooth attack but a whole lot more victims of tribal warfare. We can also look at 20th century, where death by war and tyrannical rule outstripe untimely death by all other causes. Does that give me the right to say Human societies are evolutionary malformation?

The fact is that anything you find in human, you can retrospectively build an unverifiable story of evolution to justify its existance. Why humans torture each other? evolution. why humans have morality? evolution. why humans follow leaders? evolution. why humans rebel? evolution.

People believe what they *want* to believe. That's what you are missing from your hypothesis. You are assuming that people prefer knowing the "truth", when really all they want is to feel good about themselves.

Humans have an innate desire to feel a part of something bigger, and to find purpose and meaning in their lives. People don't like to feel ignorant, and they don't like admitting their ignorance. They are also lazy. All this combined explains why most people are so ready to believe in simple answers about the purpose of life.

You assume belief is a matter of preference. Think again whether that is true. I know for a fact that If I believe in chirstianity I could have a better social life, can I make myself believe in chirstianity?

People do want to believe something that makes themslaves feel better. You say it's nature, I say it's culture.

Faith and honesty have only the faintest relation to each other. Trust is not built on honesty, it's built own relationships. A child trusts his mother because she is his caretaker, not because she is honest. School kids trust their teachers because they are also caretakers. People trust policemen and doctors because they're authority figures.

Moral education, religious or patriotic, fail not because they're simplistic, but because the students stop at the simple answers. You can't become a successful scientist by just reading textbooks. You have to go out and do your own experiments and draw your own conclusions. The same principle applies for morality.

You're mistaking two concepts of "trust". In my original, "trust" means "taking what someone said at facevalue". When you talk about "trust", you took it to be "trust someone to care for you". I trust my mother as a caregiver doesn't entail that I trust her advice and statements of facts. In fact, I don't trust my mother in that regard, nor my primary school teachers. Perhaps my way of saying trust is better tranlate into "credibility". Let's say faith comes from credibility, and credibility comes from honesty.

Speaking from experiance, I never give any credibility to my primary school and early secondary school teachers precisely becasue they were never "wrong". It doesn't take a child long to figure out the school is just a game where you try to guess the "right" answer to get the reward and avoid punishment. Most children go through education system that way and never been charmed by the beauty of knowledge. It's not like they believe in simple stuff either. Do they really believe in 1+1=2? I mean if after finishing school, some authority decleared 1+1=3, and anyone doesn't do so would face punishment, do you think they would offer resistance? In fact, students today graduate from schools believing in nothing, 1+1=2 is a rule of the game which can just easily be 1+1=3. They are disillusioned and cynical.

I never said being simple is the problem. I said lack of credibility on the part of teacher is the problem. In your theory, people turn to religion becuase it offers a simplistic world view. But a lot of virtues and morals offer just that too. All those we've been talking about: peace, alturism, self-sacrifice all assume a very simplistic worldview(simpler even than religion). These values are being taught early and encouraged throughout primary education in China, and I heard more and more talks about today's chinese youths' "lack of value and ethics". Why is that? becuase no one understand what "self-sacrifice" means? or no one believe in it? And can you blame student in not believing in self-sacrifice when they observe absolutely on one in their environment behave like that?


To summarize, I think education shouldn't aim at making its students saints. It should aim at making them realistic, by being honest with them, by presenting them truth. I didn't see any saint out of our education system, I see a lot cynicism, I think realism is an improvement over cynicism.
 
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ahadicow

Junior Member
Critical thinking....
All human are mortal. Socrates is human, therefore Socrates is mortal.
In order to justify living, Socrates must chose his "poison" (actually the Greek literally chose one for him, or is it Socrates chose to "poison" himself?)

“The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.”
“The unexamined life is not worth living.”
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
“I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only make them think”
“Wonder is the beginning of wisdom.”
“To find yourself, think for yourself.”
― Socrates

Did Socrates really said those things? Anyway seem to me someone like Socrates's poison.

I do. I actually don't believe there is a guy called Socrates that lived in Greece and said these things. But I believe in the things that had been said;)
 

luhai

Banned Idiot
As a shameless plug, here is a Chinese documentary I translated a few years ago. it's nice to actually get into Chinese schools, meet the teacher, admins and students and actually see the actually problems, proposed solutions and aspirations from the Chinese perspective. Too axe grinding from other sources I'm afraid, and often miss the mark.


To enable the subtitle, you must click the CC button on the youtube screen!!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

ahadicow

Junior Member
Just watched. In my opinion, it's another reflection on the polar seperation of chinese education system's ideal and reality. My biggest impression was with a elementratry school that engrave onto their staircase, five tranditional chinese virtues : 仁(mercy) 义(compassion) 礼(modesty) 智(intelligence) 信(credibility).

How do you teach those things to 12yr old children in a ultilitarian society that is incresingly obsessed with material gain?

I have no idea.

But I do know grand school buildings with profound symbolism and making young kids dress in tranditional chinese attires would not help.

ps: forgot to say, good job translating and posting. It is sadly from CCTV that can't help but to propagandize. I watched a NHK documentry about chinese education that I think rather stirkes at heart(acturally chinese and japanese education have similar problems), I would try to dig it up.
 
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delft

Brigadier
I agree with your premise, but disagree with your conclusions.

The fact is, very few people are capable of critical thinking. If you doubt me, just look at how popular religion is.

Now I have no doubt that there are religious people out there who chose to espouse their beliefs because they took the time to understand those beliefs and agree with them. It's just that I've never met one.

The vast majority of religious people are religious simply because it makes them feel better to have those beliefs. I remember speaking to a girl and we happened to talk about her religious beliefs. When I mentioned that I don't believe in any god or religion, she asked, "but how can you tell good from bad without religion?".

Human beings are social animals. The evolutionary trait of "herd mentality" gave us a better chance for survival than everyone thinking for themselves and potentially breaking up the tribe. Therefore, critical thinking is actually fighting against millennia of evolutionary pressure.

If we tried your approach toward education, most people would have no idea what to think, and would fall prey to the first person who offered them "easy answers" to life's questions.

Critical thinking is a skill, just like swimming. You can't just throw a child into a swimming pool and expect him to start swimming. And just like any other skill, critical thinking needs to be based on a set of axioms that one has to take on faith, at least at first. It's only when you begin to master a skill that you can start examining the basic axioms.
OT
I was raised without religion but I found that I knew more about the Bible and Christian beliefs than most of my acquaintances who where raised as Christians. However it took my wife a long time to impress on me the iniquities of the Christian ways of thinking. She was raised a Christian and her grandfather was a professor in protestant theology at a Belgian University. She stopped believing when she was 17 but already as a child she couldn't see God's Love in the massacre of the inhabitants of Jericho.
 

vesicles

Colonel
Critical thinking is a training, a skill, not a genetic trait. Just like any other trainable skills, someone can be good at it while others are less good at it. Most students in any nation start out without any training on critical thinking because their top priority is learning, not doubting whatever they are being taught. Since most people go to work immediately after college, they are stuck with the whatever-in-the-writing-must-be-correct mode. Of course, there are people who are born suspicious of everything. They have difficulty with authority and have difficulty accepting anything. However, this is NOT critical thinking.

Critical thinking has to be trained. You can't simply doubt any thing written without any reason. Those crazy nuts who doubt moon landing are not critical thinkers. You have to learn to look at the right places and ask the right questions. People spend a lot of time learning how to put on the critical thinking hat. I still remember first year in grad school, we were grilled so hard in those seminar classes. At first, we thought it would be the easiest class since it's simply reading a few papers and no tests, just some oral presentation discussing the papers. Yet, it became so hard. The professors kept asking "how do you know?" "Why do you think that is the case?" "What do you think they did wrong?" We always felt like a bunch of dumba$$$ after the class. We had a hard time understanding why we had to do all this. I mean these papers have been published in high impact peer reviewed journals. These are experts in the field. How can they do anything wrong??? They wouldn't allow it to be published if they found something wrong. But the truth is everybody makes mistakes, either out of carelessness, wrong hypothesis/theory, or lack of data.

I remember talking with my dad about all the scientific theories when i was in grad school. My dad was so frusated whenever I kept saying how great Newton and Eimstein were. He kept telling me that while it is OK to admire these great scientists, it is NOT OK to believe in their theories as if they are fact/truth. All their theories are only theories confirmed by experiments that could be performed at the time and limited by the knowledge known at the time. The only way to advance science is to believe in your heart that any theory can be wrong. Otherwise, we will be kept in this box and never be able to actually advance.
 
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