PRC/PLA 2015 Victory Parade Thread

Blitzo

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I'm following logic not what the realities are. If people think it's so easy to track everything just like people say Seawolf submarines are stalking Chinese subs gathering intelligence without being noticed, then why is anything else needed i.e. an underwater drone? A Seawolf submarine has to have more capabilities and more advanced technology. If they're using underwater drones whether advanced or not, that only means there's a risk seen where either technologically or strategically that sets a limit. So claiming the US can track everything so easily is not so easy as hyped. BTW, the article I mentioned reading suggested it was an advanced underwater drone. I was playing off of that.

I'm following logic too. I'm say that there are a number of other reasons that may explain why the drone was there, and we do not have enough information to suggest that it was only there because USN SSNs are unable to conduct effective close in surveillance (due to Chinese ASW capabilities, which seems to be your suggestion).

For instance, they might be trialling new drones, or maybe the drones are there for long term wider area surveillance while SSNs conduct more local shorter term surveillance, or maybe the drones can do the same mission but at lower cost... all of which have nothing to do with the actual ability of USN SSNs to conduct close in surveillance versus Chinese ASW.


That isn't to say we shouldn't consider that as a possibility, but it's only one of many possibilities which may explain why the drone was there.


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I am also not sure if we have enough information to make any kind of claim regarding how easy or difficult it is for USN SSNs to conduct close in surveillance in the first place. There are people who make claims saying that USN SSNs are able to monitor everything in Chinese waters, or sink Chinese ships as they leave harbour, and all manner of phrases like that about how undetectable their SSNs are and how incompetent Chinese ASW is.
I find those statements to lack backing, however I also accept that based on what limited information regarding those subjects that we do have and the few logical inferences we can make, that USN SSNs are a significant threat to Chinese naval capabilities (how much is another matter).

So if it's any consolation, I think that the people making the claims you are talking about are overreaching and lack evidence to support their more detailed claims. However that does not mean that we have enough evidence in the presence of this UUV drone to say that their suggestions are impossible.
 
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AssassinsMace

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No I wasn't talking about Chinese ASW capabilities. I'm talking limits to their ability. That's pretty bold to say Seawolf subs are infiltrating in and out of Chinese waters without being detected. I doubt that simply on the risk where that submarine gets stuck in Chinese waters. What's the difference from believing spies on the ground are following where those missiles are going? Same thing in my opinion.
 
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Blitzo

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No I wasn't talking about Chinese ASW capabilities. I'm talking limits to their ability. That's pretty bold to say Seawolf subs can infiltrate in and out of Chinese waters without being detected. I doubt that simply on the risk where that submarine gets stuck in Chinese waters.

... but whether a submarine can infiltrate in and out of Chinese waters has everything to do with Chinese ASW capabilities. ASW capabilities include being able to detect opposing submarines, so if you're saying that USN SSNs cannot do so, then you're suggesting that China has ASW capabilities which are able to detect and potentially prosecute those submarines.

If no risk of detection exists then a submarine will obviously go about its mission to conduct close in surveillance.


What's the difference from believing spies on the ground are following where those missiles are going? Same thing in my opinion.

You'll have to explain why you believe the two situations are the same, because I do not see any major points of similarity. To be fair, ultra's original belief was nonsensical anyway, with multiple layers of what I believe is incorrect logic.
But there's a very practical difference between close in surveillance on the ground, within another country's borders, during peacetime, surrounded by an opposing force with a high chance of discovery, while following highly important weapons systems such as ICBMs or IRBMs (which was ultra's suggestion), compared to conducting close in surveillance via difficult to detect underwater submarines near a fixed location such as a naval base or harbour. (And how difficult a submarine is to detect has everything to do with the other side's ASW capabilities... which is why I'm saying that your statement is inherently making a claim about China's ASW capabilities vis a vis USN submarines)

Putting it another way, ultra's original suggestion of foreign agents following missiles on the ground was dismissed because we believe that China's HUMINT counter-intelligence capabilities and general securitiy measures on its home turf are capable enough to prevent such a thing from happening. In this case, this surveillance is considered unrealistic because China has the ability to deny that kind of surveillance from occurring.
Your suggestion about USN SSNs conducting surveillance as being unrealistic, similarly rests on the belief that China has the ability to deny surveillance by USN SSNs from occurring (aka via China's ASW capability)
 
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I get the feeling that both US intelligence capabilities and PRC second artillery capabilities are being wildly speculated about. However that counter-intuitively may be a sign of a good balance of deterrence being achieved, though each side's choice of overall attitude towards the other ultimately determines the direction of the relationship. Unilateral non-assured destruction is just as important as mutually assured destruction in preserving the peace.
 

Blitzo

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I get the feeling that both US intelligence capabilities and PRC second artillery capabilities are being wildly speculated about.

I'm not sure which discussion you're referring to, I think the discussion has more revolved around intelligence versus counter-intelligence, in two specific domains: on the ground within China's borders by foreign agents (which is what ultra was talking about), and at Chinese naval bases and in and around Chinese territorial waters by USN SSNs (my discussion with A-Mace).

I don't think the capabilities of 2nd Artillery really come into it; it's more about the counter intelligence capability of the Chinese military (or maybe the counter-intelligence capability of the 2nd Artillery if one wants to be specific), and in relation to my discussion with A-Mace it is more about the ASW capability of the Chinese Navy.
The actual capability of the 2nd Artillery (missile number, types, range, readiness, etc) are not really being discussed.
 

AssassinsMace

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I'm not talking just technologically. Are they willing to risk an advanced sub being stuck in Chinese waters? Just like they're not going to risk spies following a convoy of missiles. It's easy to send someone to follow a convoy. Are they willing to risk that? Risk losing people and violating international law is a limit to their capabilities. So if they did send that drone, that establishes a limit and not at all close to the hype. The people that taunt spies on the ground and Seawolves infiltrating are bragging there is no limit. There is a limit and that alone says they can't do what is claimed at will. And if I recall correctly there was no mention that the underwater drone was found in Chinese territorial waters. If it was found in China's EEZ and international waters, that expands the limit showing the risk they're not willing to gamble contrary to the hype. The more expansive the limit, the less they're capable of doing what they claim whether it's a technological or political limitation.
 

Blitzo

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I'm not talking just technologically. Are they willing to risk an advanced sub being stuck in Chinese waters? Just like they're not going to risk spies following a convoy of missiles. It's easy to send someone to follow a convoy. Are they willing to risk that? Risk losing people and violating international law is a limit to their capabilities.

Okay, but whether they are willing to risk inserting agents into chinese territory to conduct surveillance missions, or whether they are willing to risk submarines conducting close in surveillance, inherently has to do with the ability for their agents or submarines to be compromised.

In other words, the risk still ultimately comes down to how good the other side is able to detect and prevent their surveillance.


So if they did send that drone, that establishes a limit and not at all close to the hype.

It sets a minimum limit, it does not mean that is the maximum limit. That is to say, what was found is something which falls within the bounds of what they are willing to risk, but the drone tells us nothing about where the bounds actually are.


The people that taunt spies on the ground and Seawolves infiltrating are bragging there is no limit. There is a limit and that alone says they can't do what is claimed at will. And if I recall correctly there was no mention that the underwater drone was found in Chinese territorial waters. If it was found in China's EEZ and international waters, that expands the limit showing the risk they're not willing to gamble contrary to the hype. The more expansive the limit, the less they're capable of doing what they claim whether it's a technological or political limitation.

The people who taunt that spies are on the ground and that seawolves are infiltrating Chinese waters are making sweeping statements with limited evidence and poor logic, there's no reason to stoop down to their level. (By the way, let's remember that there are only three submarines in the Seawolf class, there are many more Virginias and LA class SSNs which conduct similar missions.)

You are absolutely correct in saying that international law should be a deterrent against nations wanting to conduct clandestine intelligence operations against each other, but ultimately whether a nation seeks to break that law depends on their ability to get away with it, and whether they can get away with it or not depends on the other side's ability to detect and prosecute their intelligence operations whether it be HUMINT counter intelligence against an agent on the ground, or a reliable ASW capability against opposing SSNs. (and also of course it depends on how much they need the intelligence as well -- risk vs reward)

The UUV drone says nothing about the extent of USN's SSN surveillance against China, nothing about where they are conducting their missions, nothing about the upper and lower boundaries of accepted risk, and says nothing about how good Chinese ASW is or how good the USN thinks China's ASW is.
All the UUV drone tells us (assuming it is USN), is that the USN is either testing or deploying such technology, and did so in that region of water. It doesn't tell us whether UUV drones are taking over all underwater surveillance of the USN, it doesn't tell us why that drone was there in the first place, it doesn't tell us how big of a risk it is for the USN to conduct SSN underwater surveillance against China.
So statistically speaking, we do not know where the UUV drone sits in the bell curve of the USN's underwater surveillance operations against China. The UUV drone does not tell us where the upper and lower bounds of risk are, it doesn't tell us the majority of kinds of operations which are conducted. It is simply one lone data point that we happened to come across and we don't know if it is representative of a majority of operations or if it is an outlier.
 
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AssassinsMace

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I'm showing the flaws of their logic. The number one reason why one would use an unmanned drone is so one doesn't risk lives. The drone was used because normal means were riskier. This is not just people but the news media that hypes the invisibility of Seawolves and how they're stalking every Chinese sub right now without being detected. That's not claiming superior Chinese ASW to doubt it. Most likely Seawolves have never gotten that close as to be put to the test. Just like they don't fly F-22s near China for fear of the electronic intelligence that can be gathered from it. They say Seawolves are gathering signatures to Chinese subs. They don't know if China is doing that themselves hence why they possibly they won't risk it. When the F-22 was the only game in town, it was completely invisible and no one could take it on. Then Russia and China come out with their stealth aircraft and all of the sudden there were means to countering stealth. They knew there was a limitation to the stealth technology because they would had to have studied it. But before... the F-22 was invisible and invincible. Same talk regarding sub technology. It's all a lot of hype more for psychological value. Just like they can track every Chinese missile.
 
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Blitzo

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I'm showing the flaws of their logic. The number one reason why one would use an unmanned drone is so one doesn't risk lives. The drone was used because normal means were riskier.

But there are other equally viable reasons why maybe the drone is being used:
-maybe they were only testing the drone
-maybe the drone is only being used for long term surveillance while SSNs are used for shorter term surveillance
-maybe the drone only conducts certain types of surveillance while SSNs conduct other types
-maybe the drone is more cost effective than SSNs
-etc

In other words -- we have no idea why they used the drone in that case, and we cannot even begin to realistically pin down a reason why, because we have no idea how often they use drones compared to using SSNs.


This is not just people but the news media that hypes the invisibility of Seawolves and how they're stalking every Chinese sub right now without being detected. That's not claiming superior Chinese ASW. Most likely Seawolves have never gotten that close as to be put to the test. Just like they don't fly F-22s near China for fear of the electronic intelligence that can be gathered from it. They say Seawolves are gathering signatures to Chinese subs. They don't know if China is doing that themselves hence why they possibly won't risk it. When the F-22 was the only game in town, it was completely invisible and no one could take it on. Then Russia and China come out with their stealth aircraft and all of the sudden there were means to countering stealth. They knew there was a limitation to the stealth technology because they would had to have studied it. But before... the F-22 was invisible and invincible. Same talk regarding sub technology. It's all a lot of hype more for psychological value. Just like they can track every Chinese missile.

This part of your post is making so many other assumptions and statements that other people have supposedly made that it would take me hours to individually refute each of them.

So I'll ask you, what exactly is your concluding argument, and what are the premises supporting your position? Because one moment you're talking about USN SSNs, then you're talking about UUV drones, then you're talking about F-22s and stealth, and I can't make heads or tails of what you're saying.
 
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AssassinsMace

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Well it all started with making bold claims that Chinese missiles can be track on the ground in a large country like China. Everything else I've pointed to is also bold claims. I used Kosovo as an example of how hard it is to track what's on the ground even with all of NATO's advanced technology. The F-22 also went through the hype and disputed by their own that stealth wasn't as invincible after all in order to counter Russian and Chinese stealth developments. They said that underwater drone was spying on Chinese submarines. I thought Seawolves were doing that as hyped. It's irrelevant what other possible uses for that underwater drone. Seawolves were already and more capable of doing that job being as undetectable as hyped. They say Seawolves and other US subs are following Chinese subs every step of the way. If that's true they don't need that drone. If they need it it's because there's a limitation that falls short of the hype to what they can do with those subs. Of course the media might be misrepresenting the facts but a lot people believe in their spin and that's what I'm arguing against just like believing Chinese missile on the ground can be found and tracked 24/7. Yeah the drone angle isn't confirmed like the others, but it smells like the same hype if you believe Seawolves are stalking Chinese subs every step of the way.
 
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