Potential backfire from Google Ban

Jura The idiot · May 22, 2019

now found this (related to your interesting question

manqiangrexue said:
2. How is it possible if Huawei owns 51% of the joint venture?

which I'm unable to answer):
Arm’s Joint Venture with China: Best News Since ZTE Ban
May 4, 2018

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Since the start of the China-U.S. trade war, the United States has repeatedly attacked China’s weaknesses, letting more and more Chinese realize the importance of China-made chips. On May 1,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, a British multinational semiconductor and software design company owned by the Japanese SoftBank Group, announced an Arm joint venture in China. Arm‘s new joint venture began operations in late April and has taken over Arm’s business in the Chinese market. Furthermore, sources reveal that the joint venture plans to IPO in the A shares market, China’s domestic stock market. It is reported that the new joint venture, named
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, is based in Shenzhen, with the Chinese partner controlling 51% of the shares while Arm Holdings owning 49%. The joint venture will take over all of Arm’s business in the Chinese market, including licensing and royalties businesses with Chinese companies.

Arm is one of the most influential chip technology providers in the world. Currently, about 90% of the world’s mobile devices are using Arm’s chip technology. Companies such as Apple, Samsung, Huawei, Qualcomm, Broadcom, MediaTek and many others all need to license technology from Arm to develop chipsets for smartphone, tablets, wearables and various connected devices. Arm Holdings was acquired by SoftBank for $32 billion in an all-equity deal two years ago.

According to some analysts, the establishment of the Arm China joint venture is also a breakthrough in the chip field for China. China is currently vigorously developing its own semiconductor industry to cut reliance on foreign suppliers. Especially after the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, China realized the urgency of developing its own indigenous technology in the industry.

Arm has not released its sales statistics in the Chinese market, but according to analysts, it is estimated that 25% of the company’s revenue come from China. According to Rene Haas, the EVP and president of Arm’s IP Products Group, Arm’s business growth in China is faster than in any other countries and it is expected to become the largest market for Arm within five years. In addition, there are also reports that the Arm China will IPO in the A shares market in China in as soon as 2018.

This article originally appeared in
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
and was translated by Pandaily.

gelgoog · May 22, 2019

Hendrik_2000 said:
Well here is what CMP form CDF said
Huawei does not produce chips, its chips are entrusted to wafer foundries such as TSMC. In this regard, Huawei’s 16nm, 12nm, and 7nm chips are all from TSMC. Will TSMC stop supplying Huawei because of the US ban? Today, TSMC officially issued an announcement on the matter. After a preliminary evaluation, TSMC believes that it meets the export control regulations so it will not stop the supply plan for Huawei. This means that TSMC will provide Huawei’s foundry Kirin 980 with security improvements in the second half of the year. The upcoming Kirin 985 processor will not be affected.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

As a fabless semiconductor company, Huawei has two major problem – one is ARM license, and the other is ARM chip manufacturing. In terms of licensing, Huawei not only has its own Hisilicon Kirin and other processors, but also has a permanent license for the ARMv8 architecture, which means that even if ARM does not provide instruction set authorization to Huawei in accordance with US requirements, it will not affect Huawei’s own research and development of ARMv8 processors, because Huawei can design independently since it has a permanent authorization.

I think it is too early to tell. I think US reporters overestimate ARM's dependency on its US operations. For example the Mali GPUs are designed in Norway. The ISA is designed in the UK. At best (some) of the CPU core designs might be made in the US. But given enough of a push, I think this move by US will in fact make them move their operations totally outside the US. All that is necessary is for Chinese companies to make it profitable for ARM to do so which I doubt would be that hard.

I think both Apple and Qualcomm are incredibly vulnerable at this point however. The Chinese government should be making Chinese suppliers become as independent of Qualcomm's handset chips as possible.

manqiangrexue · May 22, 2019

Jura said:
... dated

05.22.19

12:33 pm

If Huawei Loses ARM's Chip Designs, It's Toast
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

even Uyghurs got inside, so I don't repost the text

The article conclusion is not really what the title says. There is much doubt in this article as to what the ARM disconnect will mean. It seems that the consensus is that Huawei has some permanent license over the best version of ARM today (ARM8?) and going forward, they will need to improve on that instead of buy software improvements by ARM.

That makes me question whether some other Chinese company can purchase ARM9 and cue Huawei in as to how to improve ARM8 if Huawei is having an issue doing it alone. Obviously they cannot copy or it would be copyright infringement but a push in the right direction, or a blueprint to modify until it can be argued that it is not the same thing can be very helpful I think.

The main problem, according to the consensus here, might be a TSMC ban, which TSMC is still saying they are not under. To ameliorate that danger, Chinese fab companies like SMIC are racing to be able to replace TSMC, at least in a somewhat satisfactory way ASAP.

vincent · May 22, 2019

manqiangrexue said:
The article conclusion is not really what the title says. There is much doubt in this article as to what the ARM disconnect will mean. It seems that the consensus is that Huawei has some permanent license over the best version of ARM today (ARM8?) and going forward, they will need to improve on that instead of buy software improvements by ARM.

The main problem might be a TSMC ban, which TSMC is still saying they are not under. To ameliorate that danger, Chinese fab companies like SMIC are racing to be able to replace TSMC, at least in a somewhat satisfactory way ASAP.

Huawei will lose access to future updates to the ARM architecture (say ARMv9). It would be wise for it and other Chinese phone and server manufacturers to move to an open architecture like RISC V that is sanction proof, like Linux

Jura The idiot · May 22, 2019

manqiangrexue said:
The article conclusion is not really what the title says. There is much doubt in this article as to what the ARM disconnect will mean. It seems that the consensus is that Huawei has some permanent license over the best version of ARM today (ARM8?) and going forward, they will need to improve on that instead of buy software improvements by ARM.

That makes me question whether some other Chinese company can purchase ARM9 and cue Huawei in as to how to improve ARM8 if Huawei is having an issue doing it alone. Obviously they cannot copy or it would be copyright infringement but a push in the right direction, or a blueprint to modify until it can be argued that it is not the same thing can be very helpful I think.

The main problem might be a TSMC ban, which TSMC is still saying they are not under. To ameliorate that danger, Chinese fab companies like SMIC are racing to be able to replace TSMC, at least in a somewhat satisfactory way ASAP.

(unrelated to ARM) also this reportedly happened:

"Britain’s largest mobile phone network

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

from its 5G launch and two of Japan’s largest mobile phone carriers have

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

of a new Huawei smartphone."

it's in the 4th paragraph of
FirstFT: Today’s top stories
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

manqiangrexue · May 22, 2019

vincent said:
Huawei will lose access to future updates to the ARM architecture (say ARMv9). It would be wise for it and other Chinese phone and server manufacturers to move to an open architecture like RISC V that is sanction proof, like Linux

OK how hard would that be? I'm mostly reading that Huawei's entire design is based on ARM so moving to RISC V sounds like everything has to be redesigned from the basics. Is that correct or is it much easier than that?

So I added this thought into my last comment after you replied. What do you think about this:

That makes me question whether some other Chinese company can purchase ARM9 and cue Huawei in as to how to improve ARM8 if Huawei is having an issue doing it alone. Obviously they cannot copy or it would be copyright infringement but a push in the right direction, or a blueprint to modify until it can be argued that it is not the same thing can be very helpful I think.

manqiangrexue · May 22, 2019

Jura said:
(unrelated to ARM) also this reportedly happened:

"Britain’s largest mobile phone network
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
from its 5G launch and two of Japan’s largest mobile phone carriers have
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
of a new Huawei smartphone."

it's in the 4th paragraph of
FirstFT: Today’s top stories
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Ok so this isn't really a continuation of our conversation in any way. You just posted a fact here so what should I say? OK, I see?

It would have been more appropriate to post this as a reply to the thread rather than a reply to my posts about the relationship between Huawei and ARM.

Jura The idiot · May 22, 2019

manqiangrexue said:
Ok so this isn't really a continuation of our conversation in any way. You just posted a fact here so what should I say? OK, I see?

It would have been better to post this as a reply to the thread rather than one to my posts about the relationship between Huawei and ARM.

thought you might want to comment, sorry if you didn't, LOL!

manqiangrexue · May 22, 2019

Jura said:
thought you might want to comment, sorry if you didn't, LOL!

I would still comment on it if it were posted to the thread. Wouldn't stop me, but a reply should typically be to continue a conversation. Anyway, how would I comment on these simple and rather anticipated facts? "OK I understand" is all there is.

vincent · May 22, 2019

manqiangrexue said:
OK how hard would that be? I'm mostly reading that Huawei's entire design is based on ARM so moving to RISC V sounds like everything has to be redesigned from the basics. Is that correct or is it much easier than that?

So I added this thought into my last comment after you replied. What do you think about this:

That makes me question whether some other Chinese company can purchase ARM9 and cue Huawei in as to how to improve ARM8 if Huawei is having an issue doing it alone. Obviously they cannot copy or it would be copyright infringement but a push in the right direction, or a blueprint to modify until it can be argued that it is not the same thing can be very helpful I think.

ISA = instruction set architecture

In layman's terms, it is the language of the machine (CPU). When someone write a piece of software, one typically write it in a higher level language like C/C++ (my days), Java, Swift, etc. A software call "compiler" would translate that into machine language (like ARMv9 instruction set).

Huawei can't implement a CPU that can converse in ARMv9 without a proper license. Same principle as no one can produce a CPU that runs x64 (Intel) languange without permission from Intel (which is never)

RISC V is open for everyone to use, just like Linux

Potential backfire from Google Ban

Jura The idiot

General

gelgoog

Brigadier

manqiangrexue

Brigadier

vincent

Grumpy Old Man

Jura The idiot

General

manqiangrexue

Brigadier

manqiangrexue

Brigadier

Jura The idiot

General

manqiangrexue

Brigadier

vincent

Grumpy Old Man