Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

williamhou said:

Which PLAN sub launched anti ship missiles can not be shot down?

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I think the other person is referring to the Klubs fitted on the PLAN Kilos right now. Currently, there is no drone in the Western world that could simulate its performance and flight behavior, that is until sometime in the next decade. Fire control issues on the Klubs have been resolved and they are tested and operational.

Cannot be shot down is too strong a phrase. More like, never tested in shooting down.

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

crobato said:

I think the other person is referring to the Klubs fitted on the PLAN Kilos right now. Currently, there is no drone in the Western world that could simulate its performance and flight behavior, that is until sometime in the next decade. Fire control issues on the Klubs have been resolved and they are tested and operational.

Cannot be shot down is too strong a phrase. More like, never tested in shooting down.

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Excellent response as usual Crobato. And right on point.

The only proof that these weapons systems work "as advertised" would be actual combat.

I pray these weapons systems never have to oppose each other because the result would be catastrophic for the World....

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

bd popeye said:

The only proof that these weapons systems work "as advertised" would be actual combat.
.

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This statement cuts both ways - the same benchmarks applies for US Navy SM2 , SM3s and the likes. They have never been tested in actual combat against a Sunburn or the Klubs . No one knows 100% sure that it will work . (Or not).

Hopefully one day they can put robots on an Aegis Cruiser to review the veracity of the USN claims - Can a SM2/3 really shoot down a Klub (or Not) ?

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Its all too interesting, and worth a thread on their own. However its out of topic with this thread so I will make a new thread and transfer the discussions there.

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

marclees said:

This statement cuts both ways - the same benchmarks applies for US Navy SM2 , SM3s and the likes. They have never been tested in actual combat against a Sunburn or the Klubs . No one knows 100% sure that it will work . (Or not).

Hopefully one day they can put robots on an Aegis Cruiser to review the veracity of the USN claims - Can a SM2/3 really shoot down a Klub (or Not) ?

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I agree. But SM2 & 3 have been successfully tested against targets. Albeit not targets equal to the speed or agility of a Klub.

There are some retired Ticos that could be used as you suggest. Interesting idea.!!

Are you aware of any test a Klub missile has conducted against a target as large and as fast an CVN?

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

bd popeye said:

Are you aware of any test a Klub missile has conducted against a target as large and as fast an CVN?

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Nope.
But wouldn't a larger target be easier to hit ? I would have thought the marginal increase in speed of the target CVN (from 25 to 35 knots ) relative to the speed of a Klub (mach 2+) is irrelevant .
Am I missing something here ?

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

I am by no means an expert concerning naval warfare (nor did I read the entire thread), which means that my conventional ideas are propably a total failure. Lets try "unconventional" stuff.

-Using "Pseudo-Civilian" assets to create disruption within the Naval group.

-A suddenly exploding tanker which was transmitting emergency calls should take up a lot of attention, and may even blow some stuff up with it.

-A cruiser filled with Commandos may pack some nasty suprises too, this would again rely on deception and not really coincide with the Geneve conventions.

-Esoteric means like strapping random explosives on aquatic organisms may or may not work too. They propably wont work if the Carrier moves quickly.

Concerning the finding of the carrier, given the huge crews of a carrier group, getting some HUMINT on board should not be impossible. I do not know how difficult the information transmission from that HUMINT would be, but it should not be impossible either. A carrier seems to be akin to a moving fortress, historically, many fortresses fell to deception and betrayal.

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

before you want to sunk the carrier,you need to find it and track it, but carrier despite her very large size is very diffuclt to to find it.
during the war game between uSN and australia navy,australia navy has tremendous difficult trying just to locate the USN carriers.same for soviet.

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Am I correct to assume that these war games asumed no HUMINT source/sabotage on board of the carriers?
I mean, getting a spy into such a huge group of people should by no means be impossible.
Again, I am no expert on signal warfare, but the low EM profile of a Carrier should be something that can be easily sabotaged. All you need is a Radio. Emitters can be very small, so, even if the group recongices that it is beeing comprised by a hidden emitter transmitting "here I am shoot me please" on some specific frequencies, it would take quite a while to find the source of the signal. A Carrier should provide ample hiding spaces.

Of course, this would assume some very dedicated HUMINT sources, but it should be feasable.
Also, they could try to install sets of senders on board of the carrier which will respond to a "show yourself" signal with another signal that can be seen by the opponent.

The US is an open society with a fairly open military, and it is ethnically diverse, this has a lot of advantadges (especially in a fairly meritocratic society), but it does ease up infiltration by determined enemy forces.

I mean, I would (actually I would not get in since I already served in the German army) have relativly little trouble in getting into the US army (Age 25, physically fit, quite decent mental abilities), I dont even have to be a US citizen for that. Trying to get into the Peoples Liberation army would propably be an exercise in futility (actually, I have no idea how the immigration/naturalisation procedure works in China anyway, I would guess that eventually obtaining a chinese citizenship would be possible for a westerner, but before that happens I would no longer be in an age fit for military service).

I would also guess that the Chinese are a bit more strict in correctly vetting their personal, since they have less inhibitions concerning their secret services.

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Interesting post Mightypeon. It's something to think about.

Am I correct to assume that these war games asumed no HUMINT source/sabotage on board of the carriers?

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You are incorrect. All sorts of intruder alert drills are held frequently on board all USN ships. All USN CVNs have a Police Force called the Master-of-Arms. They drill for such events constantly.

I mean, I would (actually I would not get in since I already served in the German army) have relativly little trouble in getting into the US army (Age 25, physically fit, quite decent mental abilities), I dont even have to be a US citizen for that.

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True enough. But everyone joining the the US military is subject to extensive background checks. So a spy would have to have been embedded into the US long ago or have been hacked into US society very successfully.

A Carrier should provide ample hiding spaces.

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You'd think so. But you just can't walk into someones compartment, berthing or work space without being challenged. Many spaces on a CVN are secured.

Again, I am no expert on signal warfare, but the low EM profile of a Carrier should be something that can be easily sabotaged.

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All I can tell you on this is that the USN is way ahead of you on this.

Interesting post Mightypeon and a welcome break from the usual I can sink your carrier with missiles chit chat.