054/A FFG Thread II

swimmerXC · Jan 12, 2009

Gollevainen said:
Well actually 054/A is no way remarkably more heavier or larger than any counterpory frigates. It is big frigate, well over 3,000 tons displacement, but those 4,000-5,000 ton numbers are hugely over-estimations. Lenghtwisely the ships are about 125-130 meters which alse correspond other frigates around the world.

My somewhat stubborn yet edjucated quess/assumption/analyze has been that the main reason for chinese DDG development being what it is is the proplems and/or delays to provide proper gasturbine propulsion for the destroyers. The overall development of PLAN surface fleet during the late 90's and whole this decade speaks in favour of that intruperation and 054A is aligned to it. Where as othervice the 054A is near the levels of corresponding modern frigates around the world, it's propulsion solution, diesels is more paralel to seccond-rate patrol frigates in west. Chinese knows how to make marine diesels and thus the need for modern surface combatants is fullfilled with design which can be produced in larger numbers but still being othervice up-to-date in its capabilities.

Ofcourse the DDG development delay has other factors as well aside the propulsion arragments, but IMO that is the biggest single factor in it.

Sumdud and me were talking about this the other day about whether PLAN has a any good COGAD, CODOG, or COGAG. We haven't heard anything about them.

Some how PLA likes the 054A more than the 052B or the 052C by building more ships. Even though it's a fairly big frigate like Corbato says it is still smaller compare to the destroyers the other navy in Asia has. Korea, Japan and Russia all have ships much bigger and maybe even the Indians. I have read articles that said China has the lowest average weight of ships comparing to the other major navies. I think the reason causing this is that China's majority of surface ships are made up of older frigates built earlier in the last century, so by building the more modern 054A frigate will help towards solving this problem.

If you look at it developed before the 051B would be classified as a "frigate" due to their displacement. Even the 52B and 52C are pushing it to be a destroyer when other destoryers like the Typer 45, Kongo, KDX-III, Atago, and Burkes weigh 8000+ plus when fully loaded, while the 52B and 52C are around the 6,000-6,500 range. While he Álvaro de Bazán class frigate of Spain weighs 6,250 when fully loaded.

crobato · Jan 12, 2009

Sources I've seen are putting the 054A at 4000 to 5000mt. The 054, with less equipment, is under 4000mt. Stuff like 2 CIWS along with a main gun, and a 32 cel VLS with 32 Shtil like missiles, while packing 8 AshMs, are quite heavy. You would have a hard time finding a ship packing things like this for even under 5000mt, and Chinese engineers are able to put things like that under 4000mt, they must be such wonderful structural weight engineers. Plus each of those missiles aren't lightweight, like a Croatale. A Sov carries 48 of these missiles and that ship weighs around 8000mt.

Plus it does not appear to bother that ships like the Absalon, Formidable, Riyadh and Lafayette class are all diesel powered.

adeptitus · Jan 12, 2009

Re: The Third Huangpu 054A Is Ready!

kw64 said:
I respectfully disagree, personally I think the current model of 054A is close to its end of serial production, and they would start a new class soon. PLAN seems to stick to its policy of producing small quantities of ships for each class in order to modernize more rapidly. I doubt any of their current classes of major surface warships will be produced on a large scale.

The PLAN did produce a total of 14 Jiangwei class frigates, the most recent pair (528 & 527) were launched in 2004-2005, and probably entered service around 2006. The modified variant, F-22P, is still being built for Pakistani Navy.

Following this trend, I'd expect more 054A's produced in the future, and eventually exported abroad.

tphuang · Jan 12, 2009

swimmerXC said:
Sumdud and me were talking about this the other day about whether PLAN has a any good COGAD, CODOG, or COGAG. We haven't heard anything about them.

If you look at it developed before the 051B would be classified as a "frigate" due to their displacement. Even the 52B and 52C are pushing it to be a destroyer when other destoryers like the Typer 45, Kongo, KDX-III, Atago, and Burkes weigh 8000+ plus when fully loaded, while the 52B and 52C are around the 6,000-6,500 range. While he Álvaro de Bazán class frigate of Spain weighs 6,250 when fully loaded.

there is a propulsion thread that I occasionally add to. I've already posted everything I have to say in there.

Some how PLA likes the 054A more than the 052B or the 052C by building more ships. Even though it's a fairly big frigate like Corbato says it is still smaller compare to the destroyers the other navy in Asia has. Korea, Japan and Russia all have ships much bigger and maybe even the Indians. I have read articles that said China has the lowest average weight of ships comparing to the other major navies. I think the reason causing this is that China's majority of surface ships are made up of older frigates built earlier in the last century, so by building the more modern 054A frigate will help towards solving this problem.

But by not building more 052B and 052C shows that China either has better plans for better ships or that these 2 classes are still not enough to satisfy what the Chinese navy wants.

As for why they keep building 054 series and not more 052B/C? Well, you have to give a navy some time to get used to new ships. You can't keep on improving on hardware without improving software. Notice the wait from 054 to 054A? And also a lot of it is due to shipyard's availability. HP simply has a lot more capacity than JN, which was on the move. engine is another issue. Frankly, I think all the clues are out there.

And btw, if we just look at 054A vs 052B, other than range/endurance and additional AShM, what does 052B have over 054A? 054A is really just a more capable ship.

Pointblank · Jan 12, 2009

As much as you need the high end ships, you also need the good old multipurpose workhorse of the fleet. Frigates, similar to the Type 54/A fulfil this role in many navies around the world.

philbob · Jan 13, 2009

any chance of the tpye 54 on the export market? i see a killing that could be made with that ship

Gollevainen · Jan 13, 2009

Sources I've seen are putting the 054A at 4000 to 5000mt. The 054, with less equipment, is under 4000mt. Stuff like 2 CIWS along with a main gun, and a 32 cel VLS with 32 Shtil like missiles, while packing 8 AshMs, are quite heavy. You would have a hard time finding a ship packing things like this for even under 5000mt, and Chinese engineers are able to put things like that under 4000mt, they must be such wonderful structural weight engineers. Plus each of those missiles aren't lightweight, like a Croatale. A Sov carries 48 of these missiles and that ship weighs around 8000mt.[/QUOTE

I've seen those figures myself but still I don't belive them. Take Tawlar for instance. It has far heavier (weightly) weaponsystems onboard (And numerically even more stuff) than 054A but still its full displacement is 4000 tons. The tremendeous Neustrashimyy which is far larger dimensionally than both Tawlar and 054A is still only 4,200 tons full load.

As for diesel pwoered frigates in the west, Only French uses the propulsion for front line frigates, other uses it for ships like Absalon which are very different ships than 054A from all aspects (Absalon is not a Frigate BTW).

crobato · Jan 13, 2009

Goll, feel free to point out another frigate under 5000 mt that has to have these:

2 CIWS guns
1 naval gun
32 cel VLS for medium ranged SAMs
8 AshMs

Much less under 4000mt.

Then I will believe you.

If an Absalon is not a frigate what it is anyway? The term frigate is used liberally depending your point of view. Technically, in the USN, frigate was used to denote DL or Destroyer Leader which should be cruiser.

I also don't see the Talwar class having numerically more stuff especially when the 054A has two radars heaped on top of two masts instead of one.

Pointblank · Jan 13, 2009

philbob said:
any chance of the tpye 54 on the export market? i see a killing that could be made with that ship

Not much; the market is already well dominated by ships from other nations; the French with their La Fayette, Germans with their MEKO series, or even slightly used ships. It is either people are buying ships from well-established market players, or are themselves major shipbuilding nations, or prefer smaller coastal ships for their needs.

Gollevainen · Jan 13, 2009

Well like I said Tawlar is perfect example of ship with more stuff onboard and at the same dimensions and still noway near 5,000 tons...

2 CIWS guns

Tawlar has two, Kashtans which are far heavier systems than the Type 730 in 054A.

1 naval gun

A-190E vs. AK-176 clone, the first being about 3 tons heavier

32 cel VLS for medium ranged SAMs

Well roughly estimation (based on MK41 weights plus 9M38 weights) is that the 32 cell VLS would weight around 70 tons where as the 3S90 launcher (In Tawlar) with it's missiles weights more than 90 tons.

8 AshMs

Tawlar has 8 Klub's which weight being around 1,500 Kg per missiles where as 054A has 8 Yj-83 which each missile weighting around 700-800 Kg.

Add to that Tawlar carriers the RBU-6000 system whit it's reload gear. The sensorsuite in overall is strikingly similar in both vessels. So what exactly has 054A eaten so it would so much heavier? Note that all the "super-frigates" of today which are over 5000 ton displacement are also considerably longer and beamier than 054 series.

PS. Absalon is a combat support ship, Transport ship with front line armament and sensorsuite.

054/A FFG Thread II

swimmerXC

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crobato

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adeptitus

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tphuang

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Pointblank

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philbob

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Gollevainen

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crobato

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Pointblank

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Gollevainen

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