China Flanker Thread II

You can't scale down an aircraft. If you did so, the result is a totally brand new aircraft. Basic engineering. It would also defeat the purpose of being a J-11, which is being a larger sized alternative to the J-10.

Make no mistake about it, the J-11B is exactly the same size as the Su-27, right to the last millimeter. The J-11B is from its exterior, an exact clone of the Su-27. They copied it right down to having the same bladed RWR casings near the engine intake, casings that are absent on the MKK, MKI, Su-35 and Su-27SMs.

The effect of canards and TVC on the base Su-27 aerodynamic design is in my book, overrated. Aerodynamic pressures against wings and control surfaces are far greater than any Y-axis force from vectored thrust, and canards like we see on the Super Flankers are quite small compared to canards like say J-10's, Typhoon's, Rafale's and Gripen's to produce the same kind of lifting and turning forces. Personally I don't really believe that the Super Flankers are truly that more maneuverable than the base Flankers. The canards and TVC components themselves have their own weight and drag penalties to add.

I would say that the J-11B would be lighter though, by at least several hundred pounds to the Su-27 due to the additional composites and lighter electronics. That alone would have improved agility and speed, compounded with the fact that the WS-10A has slightly greater thrust (combined adds up to 1 ton plus more thrust) than the AL-31F (29,000lbs est. vs. 27,500lbs).

On 2020, 72 J-11s probably make up 10 to 15% of the Chinese J-11 force compared to 20 to 25% now, which has to assume that China will not make any J-11 for the next 10 years.

crobato said:

I would say that the J-11B would be lighter though, by at least several hundred pounds to the Su-27 due to the additional composites and lighter electronics. That alone would have improved agility and speed, compounded with the fact that the WS-10A has slightly greater thrust (combined adds up to 1 ton plus more thrust) than the AL-31F (29,000lbs est. vs. 27,500lbs).

On 2020, 72 J-11s probably make up 10 to 15% of the Chinese J-11 force compared to 20 to 25% now, which has to assume that China will not make any J-11 for the next 10 years.

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Sorry I've been gone from here for a while, but aren't there still issues with the WS-10A engines? When is the J-11B supposed to get AESA and from where? I doubt the Chinese have created an indigenous AESA radar to fit onto fighter planes.

lilzz said:

I heard the J-11B using composite material unlike the Russian made SU-30s /w mostly titanium. also redesigning the inlets. enable it reduce its RCS from 25m to 3m. That's signicant reduction!

a stealthy J-11B with BVR missile should slaughter a non-stealthy SU30-MK3, SU30-MKI?

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according to BBC report, Russia is offering improve SU-27,it reduce RCS to below 2 meter.the aircraft ben promoting to vietnam,algeria and libya

nice article about the Russian development of AESA.according to the article, russian is still behind the US in developing AESA.particular the area of packaging.
One also assume that China having there own AESA program,may have encounter similiar problem.

Sargon said:

Sorry I've been gone from here for a while, but aren't there still issues with the WS-10A engines? When is the J-11B supposed to get AESA and from where? I doubt the Chinese have created an indigenous AESA radar to fit onto fighter planes.

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By 2020 that's plenty of lead time to develop a fighter AESA. As for the WS-10A the issues were resolved in 2007.

by the time WS-10 enter service,it may already out dated.major trend toward engine development-high thrust,fuel efficiency,light weight and super cruise capability.if you look at EJ-2000, and compare it with russian counterpart,the engine was quite small,yet able to delivery large thrust

Now, China has worked closely with GE and Airbus, I wonder if they make improvement on the WS-10A's material to make it more durable. One big problem with the russian engines is it doesn't last as long as the western ones. If they do, then WS-10A would be better than the Russian's.

The next hurdle is can they ramp up it's production?
What's projected annual output? 400 engines per yr?

Whether its outdated or not its immaterial. You need to take this step before you go on to the next. And it has entered service btw with the J-11B.

I would say that the J-11B would be lighter though, by at least several hundred pounds to the Su-27 due to the additional composites and lighter electronics. That alone would have improved agility and speed, compounded with the fact that the WS-10A has slightly greater thrust (combined adds up to 1 ton plus more thrust) than the AL-31F (29,000lbs est. vs. 27,500lbs).

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From what I hear the J-11B is said to be 700kg lighter, which is quite a lot actually; almost a ton. Other than RCS reduction and weight, the other main physical improvement made on the J-11B is airframe life. The J-11B is said to be able to last over 10,000 more hours than the all-steel Su-27s. And then there is all the cockpit and electronics improvements over the original Su-27. There is nothing really radical about it or anything that would give it a significant advantage over any other late generation Flanker, and in the area of radar it might be a little behind the MKI and some of the other more advanced Flanker variants.

crobato said:

By 2020 that's plenty of lead time to develop a fighter AESA. As for the WS-10A the issues were resolved in 2007.

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there's is sino-russian joint agreement in research and development of AESA. either the chinese aesa probably more likely based on zhuk-ae and zhuk-ase.
or may have to import phozotron zhuk-ase for there j-11 fleet.
according to phozotron ,Zhuk-ASE for SU-27 upgrade will enter service around 2010.