Russia Vs Georgia..a widening crisis!

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
This is WAYYY jumping the gun here. There won't be any sort of rebuilding until the Russians clear the checkpoints and return to SO and AKZ. Until then, it's just hand outs and economic / government turmoil for the foreseeable future for Georgia.

I have to agree with Roger here. The US is not going to inflame this crisis and be seen as an instigator by providing Georgia with a nice fat arms package while there are still Russian troops on Georgian territory. That would just be too obvious. Non-lethal equipment shipped under the radar so to speak could get approved, i.e. GPS systems, nightvision, radios, etc. But there will certainly be no official arms package for a while at least. That's an unnecessary escalation.

On the subject of how many casualties the Russians suffered and how well the Georgians performed, I think we can conclude that Georgian artillery batteries around Gori and in the villages to the north of Gori inflicted most of the damage that the Russians suffered in Tshkinvalli. Once those had been suppressed by the Russian Air Force, which happened quite quickly, the Georgian light infantry and what little armour they had in Tshkinvalli didn't put up much of an effective resistance. However they did manage to make it out with most of their soldiers still alive and not captured, which means that at some point, something went right for them.
 

Scratch

Captain
Now there seems to be confusion of what the french cease-fire deal actually means to those involved.
Apparently the russians are on the move again, and some reports say some smaller convoys including APCs, tanks and trucks move northward and "retread". The Georgians, however, insist they only regroup.
Ru forces are digging trenches in Poti. And ru foreign minister Lawrow said 500 peackeepers would stay inside a "security zone" a few km inside core Georgia and mount checkpoints while others would be put into SO. Something similar is to happen around ABK. Now that's quiet different from what the west exspacted, that only the 500 soldiers would stay in SO that were there before the hostilities.
This security zone would not include Gori. But at some points the main east-west highway that connects Tiblisi - Gori - Poti. The would still leave controll over major movement in the coutry with the Russians. And there are also the forces in Poti that seem to prepare for a longer stay. By controlling the main highway at few points and perhaps even the big port city, Russia would still be in controll of public life in Georgia even with just a small amount of actuall territory occupied.
 

utelore

Junior Member
VIP Professional
NATO top OPERATIONAL commander is in georgia claiming to rebuild Georgian forces. (I know weres the proof from the next part) BUT, you just have to believe me if you want.

There will be weapons going into Georgia within weeks NOT months. It will be BILL 2 anti tank missiles and SPIKE. Passive radar sensors for detecting incoming aircraft running radar hot, thermal sites, More M-4 carbine, SMAW LAW, MPADs, Armbust or Matidor and a host of other man carry systems.

This is being fast tracked by the white house because of the threats to poland and the fact russia may not leave georgia. Rumor mill is that they will pump in weapons via Turkey and Aid flights. In about 4 months Georgia according to info could then launch a counter offensive. Tiblisi will have multi defensive belts and major rear area actions by georgian Special forces augmenting a insurgency. CIA SAG on the ground NOW.
 

akihh

New Member
NATO top OPERATIONAL commander is in georgia claiming to rebuild Georgian forces. (I know weres the proof from the next part) BUT, you just have to believe me if you want.

RIA Novosti reports that:
"NATO will help Georgia in seven ways," said Robert Simmons, NATO's special envoy for Central Asia and the South Caucasus. "First of all this means air defense and the restoration of defensive infrastructure."

So it's official, NATO will re-equip georgia asap. Simmons especially mentions air defence which georgia seemed to lack pretty throughly now. Wonder if we see patriots deployed to georgia as there is significant threat of ballistic missiles launched from south ossetia.

In about 4 months Georgia according to info could then launch a counter offensive.

Hopefully NATO would not allow that to happen, as it would lead to much more serious escalation which could suck in ukraine, even baltics and poland. If russia can't pressed to withdraw with political means, it surely ain't gonna fold when attacked. Their propaganda machine is whipping people to patriotic frenzy that Shaakasvili is the new Hitler and NATO is his culprit. Many might doubt this now but when geogia is rearmed and if it attacks the whole russia will be screaming for the next great patriotic war.

UPDATE: Lavrov called embargo of arms to georgia. Wonder how russia is trying to pull this off if NATO starts supplying.
 
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panzerkom

Junior Member
My point is simple: two wrongs don't make a right.

It is wrong for Russia to invade and occupy Georgia proper with ground forces. However, that doesn't justify Saakashvili's initial order of sending his tanks into Tskhinvali and using artillery on that city. Not to mention he did NOT consult the US or NATO prior to doing so. Even CNN and BBC called what he did a "gamble."

Re-arming Georgia with defensive capability is one thing, but giving Saakashvili the means to launch another attack against Russia is totally different, especially after what he pulled. I think the best course of action is to get Russian troops out of Georgia proper via political means, then establish a buffer zones around S.O. and Abkhazia with NATO peacekeepers, and re-arm Georgia with DEFENSIVE WEAPONRY ONLY.
 

FugitiveVisions

Junior Member
Honestly, I think it won't matter either way, Georgia will be brought into NATO in the end either way. Perhaps the Russians already realize this and they want to make it look like they're reacting to the conflict as much as possible rather than reacting to NATO membership or Kosovo.

Also recognized or not the issue will be far from resolved. In fact, the seizure of land near the Inguri river by Abkhazia indicates the issue will remain a problem.

International relations are full of subtleties. If you ignore that aspect, I suggest that you read a little more about the subject.

You don't think it matters doesn't mean it won't matter. What is not in debate is that the Europeans will exercise more caution than it did before in considering Georgia's membership. That alone is an end that Russia wanted accomplish.

Ok, so maybe Georgia joins NATO in a couple of years. Russia annexes South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Who's really the winner and who's really the loser considering the fact that Georgia has no ability to wage war with Russia? Georgia obviously loses because the number one priority in modern international relations for nation states is the maintainence of sovereignty and territorial integrity. In that case, the trade-off is simply not worth it for Georgia. Russia benefits from having greater territory, mainly from Abkhazia with its Black Sea coast. So even if that were to happen, Georgia would still come out to be a loser.
 

Panda

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Not sure if this has been posted already, but how accurate is the following article:

Russian fighting machine is showing its age, say military analysts

Pictures of triumphant Russian soldiers sitting on armoured personnel carriers as they were driven through towns in Georgia will be among the lasting images of the seven-day war. But the victory did not tell the whole story, analysts said yesterday.

The ageing vehicles were so lightly armed and so uncomfortable and hot to sit in that the Russian soldiers felt safer perched on top. “At least they could then react quickly if there was an attack,” Colonel Christopher Langton, an expert on Russian armed forces at the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies, said.

For an invading force from what used to be a military superpower, Russia's 58th Army did not look like a modern fighting unit. Victory came as a result of overwhelming numerical superiority and a textbook Soviet-style strategy based on detailed planning that leaves little room for flexibility. It was shock and awe by force of numbers, rather than by precision-guided weapons.

The Russians have learnt lessons from American campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan and from their own experiences in the Balkans, but the Georgia operation was old-style fighting with Cold War-era equipment.

The Russians arrived in Georgia not only with inadequately protected troop carriers but also lacking in airborne surveillance platforms to pinpoint targets for their gunners and bombers. They lost four aircraft, shot down by Russian-built Georgian anti-aircraft weapons. One of the aircraft was a Tupolev supersonic bomber (Tu22) known by Nato as a Blinder.

Colonel Langton said the Georgians had highly mobile anti-aircraft systems and were able to move them around to attack the Russian jets. Without the range of sophisticated unmanned aerial platforms that the Americans always deploy to watch over the battlefield, the Russians were flying blind into the war zone.

General Anatoly Kornukov, the former head of the Russian Air Force, told the Moscow-based Independent Military Review that the failure to destroy Georgian anti-aircraft capabilities before the Tu22 arrived in the region meant the crew of the bomber were sent to their deaths.

Losing aircraft at the hands of such a tiny opponent was unfortunate. Losing their overall commander, who suffered shrapnel wounds as he travelled in an armoured convoy in South Ossetia, the breakaway Georgian region, looked like carelessness. General Anatoli Khrulyov, the head of the 58th Army, was in a convoy that appeared to lack air cover.

Perhaps, most embarrassingly, the Russians discovered that some of the Georgian equipment was more advanced than their own. Georgia's T72 tanks and Su25 jet fighters were upgraded with night-vision equipment, something the Russians appeared to lack. “The Russian forces had to operate in an environment of technical inferiority,” Konstantin Makiyenko, deputy director of the Russian Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, told The Moscow Times.

The brief Georgia war, however, showed a Russian army that had improved significantly from the 1990s, when corruption, lack of leadership and poor funding hampered the once-mighty Red Army severely as it became bogged down in Chechnya, where largely conscript troops were deployed. In Georgia, the majority were professional soldiers, although the defence ministry in Moscow admitted there were some conscripts.

“The Russian army has shown that it is far more deployable than in the 90s, able to get frontline troops in and out in a short space of time,” Matthew Clements, from Jane's Information Group, said.

Russia has said that one of it priorities is to rebuild its army, and much of its new-found oil wealth has gone into weapons. The defence budget went up 22 per cent last year and Moscow plans to spend £100 billion in the next ten years on new hardware.

Russia formally informed Nato yesterday that it was halting military co-operation with the alliance until further notice. Nato foreign ministers had already announced after an emergency meeting in Brussels on Tuesday that no meeting of the Nato/Russia Council could be held until all Russian troops were withdrawn from Georgia.

Failings

— Ageing armoured personnel carriers lacked proper bolt-on armour to protect against anti-tank weapons

— No airborne unmanned surveillance platforms to spot Georgian anti-air defence systems

— No precision-guided missiles/bombs

— No night-vision or satellite-linked navigation equipment

— No protection for Tu22 bomber destroyed during reconnaissance

(Source: Times archives)

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Norfolk

Junior Member
VIP Professional
A couple of maps of maps (in Russian) of how things unfolded in Georgia:

1. The military
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in South Ossetia on 15 August. It shows the (general) positions on that day of both the Russians as well as the Georgians on that day, plus the Russian invasion route into Tskinvali (in red arrows). Note especially the Georgian position just north of T-town through which red arrows pass marking the Russian invasion route from the Roksi Tunnel (not shown); this area is wooded mountains.

2. An overall
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map (up to 18 August).
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
RIA Novosti reports that:
"NATO will help Georgia in seven ways," said Robert Simmons, NATO's special envoy for Central Asia and the South Caucasus. "First of all this means air defense and the restoration of defensive infrastructure."

So it's official, NATO will re-equip georgia asap. Simmons especially mentions air defence which georgia seemed to lack pretty throughly now. Wonder if we see patriots deployed to georgia as there is significant threat of ballistic missiles launched from south ossetia.

Yes I saw that too. The US EuCom commander made some comments to that affect. I think that at this point it is an unecessary escalation. Maybe a few months down the road it would be safe to do so, it is certainly necessary to do so at some point, but not now. I haven't heard any specific weapons being mentioned but the "air defence and restoration of defensive infrastructure" comment indicates that Georgia will be getting some nice toys. I don't foresee any big ticket items (i.e. Patriots, tanks of any kind, etc.) because this is short term and because that would be too inflammatory.

Undoubtedly the CIA/DIA are debreifing Georgian soldiers. The Western side in this conflict is getting ready for round two, whether that be a standoff or more hot war.

This situation is very dangerous. If this weapons deal goes through, and the weapons are used, then akihh is right: Russia will percieve a massive threat on its borders, encircling it (Georgia, the Baltic States, Poland) and will act accordingly.
 

utelore

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Look guys, here is the deal...white house and GOP dont want Obama in the white house. Best way to do that is threw conflict of international nature. I would not be surprised if "false flag" tactics are used but Russia is walking into a conservative hawks jaws if it even thinks of arms embargo.

Bush and Cheney will pull the trigger and go toe to toe with the big ole bear that woke up on the wrong side of the bed much to the delight of John McCain. The military is now full of war hawks after 8 years of conservative rule and believe it or not with end strength for the army now approaching 600,000 and the Marines 200,000 they believe they can fight and win a major conventional war and 2 COIN conflicts. This is just what my buds are saying.

believe me there is a OP-PLAN in place to force entry into Georgia with confidence being very high. Believe me the pentagon is already moving the peaces into place

1. start no fly zone over Georgia, Russia would get knocked out of the sky in two days. Lets be reasonable on this ,Russia cannot fight the U.S in a Air war over Georgia and Russia would not be that nuts to start shooting nukes.
2. 10,000 82nd airborne, Rangers, special forces, and Marines take positions in Georgia. C-5 transport Abrams and Bradley, strykers from Army ready brigades direct to Tiblisi.
 
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