Issues on Intercepting Hypersonic Missile.

Sea Dog

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Yeah sure... taking 5-10 seconds for each incoming missile while dozens more are incoming is "completely negligible."

Sea Dog, I don't care if you have a billion ESSMs on your AEGIS destroyer. I have one word for you: illuminators. An AEGIS destroyer can't even handle more than 10 simultaneously incoming missiles.

Really ludicrous is denying this reality.

Yes, it is negligible with the current threat seen today. Aegis ships do have enough illuminators and channels to handle a saturation attack. Unclassified, it can handle alot more than 10 missiles. I'm not sure what bogus website you get your information from, or if you just make it up wholesale. The thing is, you obviously don't understand how the illuminators work, what they have to do to guide a missile onto a target, how they process/share the data, nor have you heard of time-sharing algorithms, or cooperative engagement. As Jeff said, the theoretical you speak of, does not tell the whole story. Arleigh Burkes typically do not travel alone. Seriously, the numbers that a CSG would face today are not what they used to be. And CSG's have more in terms of missiles and overall capability(SA). If the threat numbers increase, you simply add more illuminators and missiles, in other words beef up the BG with more ships and aircraft. That's a really easy solution. And certainly within the realm of possibilities.


Wrong! Did the late Soviet Union have China's current electronic capabilities? China has long moved on from Moskits. The most advanced Chinese anti-ship missiles are not well publicized but you can bet they will incorporate the most advanced electronics, and be capable of a massed coordinated attacks.

Please read what both IDonT and Jeff said. China does not have any systems which break the paradigm in how anti-ship missiles work in profile. Missile intercepts still pretty much work the same. Tomahawks, SLAM-ER, and SS-N-27/Klub are the only missile systems I can see that currently field different profiles in actual operation. And those are American and Russian missiles. Klub however has shown some reliability issues. While some of the electronics have changed, Aegis electronics have been increasingly more sophisticated with each upgrade as well. There is nothing truly revolutionary in anti-ship missile warfare that has developed over the years. It pretty much goes the same way as the past. The interesting thing is now Aegis ships have developed the ability to saturate the offensive spectrum in missile numbers and processing power while the overall threat numbers have diminished. Seriously Roger, your dreams of 20 H-6's conquering the world is erroneous at best.
 
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Scratch

Captain
Just out of curiosity, can any of you naval experts say how long the illuminator has to mark a target prior to impact?

And, once the SM-6 comes along, is CEC that advanced that a E-2D will be able to cue it onto a target for terminal engagement?
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
It really would be nice if there was some available data concerning how much time does a spg-62 dedicate for the terminal guidance phase, given a certain incoming missile, under some specific conditions. I'm sure those figures would vary based on the manouverability of the incoming missile and perhaps its rcs, the radar receiver on the intercepting missile, the maneoverability of the interceptor and the effectiveness of its warhead.

Alas, no such data can be found on the internet. I've dedicated A LOT of my time searching for it, but it simply isn't out there.

I've been wondering about some ways to try to guesstimate the needed time. Your help and intput would be very valuable. Since radar beam is steered in a matter of miliseconds, that can't be the choke point. What probably is the choke point that prevents simple command guidance - is precision of the spy radars (how many feet or meters of position error do they give over a certain distance?) AND how frequent are the course correction signals? Does the system send a missile a new correction every 5 seconds, 2 seconds or 0.1 seconds? If it was the latter, that'd be enough for a command guidance (given the large warheads) so i'm figuring it has to be more. What prevents the fire control system to send almost real time corrections to the missile?

Anyway, burkes should be able to use all 3 illuminators against missiles coming from the side, just one coming against missiles coming from the front and two if missiles approach from the rear. Ticos should be able to use 3 against missiles coming from the side (perhaps in certain situations they could use all 4) and 2 for front and rear attacks... In light of that, it MAY prove more worthwhile to concentrate on a saturaiton attack comign from one side, instead of many.
 

Sea Dog

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Just out of curiosity, can any of you naval experts say how long the illuminator has to mark a target prior to impact?

And, once the SM-6 comes along, is CEC that advanced that a E-2D will be able to cue it onto a target for terminal engagement?

The first question is simply something that won't be TRULY addressed in an internet forum or any other open source forum. The second question is something I don't know anything at all about. When I got out, SM-6 was only a planned development for foreseen threats in the future. I'd like to know the answer as to inter-connectivity with an E-2 myself, but I have the feeling that will never be open source. SM-6 will be an active missile. That is something that we do know. But not much info out there to dilineate true capabilities of this missile. But it will be a system that further degrades anti-ship missile warfare as a viable option. No definitive info yet if it can be used against surface ship targets OTH either.
 

Roger604

Senior Member
Will China be able to mount such an attack? Right now, I think they could maybe throw together an attempt at a saturation attack like this, but it would totally stretch their resources and the chances for success will be farily low...which is to say, in the cost benefit analysis they probably will not risk it.

Even if you project forward a few years, the Chinese will certainly have more numbers and better equipment and may well have a better chance...but the US is not a stationary target and its technology (SM 6, potential direct energy weapons, etc.) in the next few years will be gauged to ensuring that a nation like China will not be willing to risk it...as the case most likely is right now.

It's a technological dance, it's a logistics dance, it's a it's a training dance, it's a battle damage and survivablity dance, it's a cost/benefit dance, and it's a historical dance where each side has to weigh its initial posture, what it is trying to accomplish, and what the likely consequences are.

Let's all hope it remains just a "dance".

Agreed on all points.

Yes, it is negligible with the current threat seen today. Aegis ships do have enough illuminators and channels to handle a saturation attack. Unclassified, it can handle alot more than 10 missiles.

LOL. You're just plain in denial. AEGIS can't illuminate targets in terminal guidance fast enough and gets saturated by a simultaneous attack... game over.

Claim whatever "unclassified facts" you want... not going to change reality.

Maybe look into PAAMS? :D

Nothing revolutionary that you have claimed. Show me Chinese Anti-ship missile as sophisticated as the Shipwreck?

By the way, most of PLA's current electronic capability is Russian based. Such as the S-300 sams, ship board radars, etc.

LOL. China's electronics capabilities are far far ahead of Russia, nevermind the Soviet Union. Even reliable sources refer to some new Chinese missiles -- "DH-10" is a name sometimes used, HN-X (forgot which number) is another name.
 

Sea Dog

Junior Member
VIP Professional
LOL. You're just plain in denial. AEGIS can't illuminate targets in terminal guidance fast enough and gets saturated by a simultaneous attack... game over.

Claim whatever "unclassified facts" you want... not going to change reality.

Maybe look into PAAMS? :D

Nope. It's called time-sharing and cooperative engagement capabilities. Plus it deals with time and distance calculations of both defensive and offensive missiles. Nothing classified about that other than nuts and bolts details. I served on one of these ships and know what they can do. Aegis can engage, time-share, and re-engage if necessary a vast sum of missile threats very rapidly due to these control algorithms. And with the emergence of SM-6 (glad somebody brought that up), it will only make it harder as it doesn't even need illumination at all from the parent ship.

Yes, PAAMS is a very good concept indeed. You won't get any arguments from me there. They will be working alongside USN and allied Aegis ships in any naval conflict.

LOL. China's electronics capabilities are far far ahead of Russia, nevermind the Soviet Union. Even reliable sources refer to some new Chinese missiles -- "DH-10" is a name sometimes used, HN-X (forgot which number) is another name.

Despite your LOL's, China's current missile paradigms are exactly the same. Missile intercepts continue to work the sameway. You're deluding yourself if you believe China's got missiles that are miles beyond what is used from past systems. Anti-ship missiles still all fly the same way, and for the most part engage the same way. USN electronics are far ahead, and have always been far ahead, and now use COTS for much quicker and easier upgrades. Yet anti-ship missile warfare remains pretty much the same in application as in the past. You can't escape that fact no matter how hard you try. System improvements in missiles won't change missile intercept geometry in any way. But yet system upgrades onboard ships with more processing power multiplies engagement capabilities drastically. It's alot harder to do that in a missile. Nor has the same been applied in the REAL world for missiles in the same way. You couldn't name an example if you tried.

not going to change reality.

A reality you've never actually experienced.
 
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crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
China's ship systems all use COTS by the way. They never had much of legacy electronics to drag them down anyway.
 

Scratch

Captain
SeaDog: I think sometimes the SM-6 is advertised as providing OTH AAW capabilities against upcoming threads to further improve the navy's defensive capabilities. For OTH targetting I believe an airborne sensor is necessary, wich is what brought the E-2 connection to my mind. Since it's active, it would "only" have to be directed into the vicinety of a target.

Since block IIIB missiles have a dual mode seeker, were there ever hints of SM-6 having that, too? Or is that even viable when there's an active RF seeker onboard already?

An AntiShip capability would be really helpfull I guess. Utilizing a block IV airframe, it should have a good range, too, even when flying at low altitude. A light supersonic AShM cued by a fire scout UAV could come as a slight suprise. That makes me already wonder if an anti radiation seeker would make sense here to degrade sensors prior to an incoming Harpoon salvo.

And since PAAMS has also been brought up, does anyone know how far interoperability between AEGIS and PAAMS (and also SEWACO with any or both for that matter) could go?
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Excellent discussion here but I have a very amateurish question: The SM-2 is certainly capable of OTH interception in theory but what role does it actually play in defending the fleet from saturation attack as discussed here?
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Excellent discussion here but I have a very amateurish question: The SM-2 is certainly capable of OTH interception in theory but what role does it actually play in defending the fleet from saturation attack as discussed here?

not an expert on this, but it would make a lot more sense for SM-2 to be used against aircrafts and ASuW. Whereas the smaller ESSM used more for AShM. Let's say it takes 2 ESSM to bring down one AShM and 2 SM-2 to bring down one AShM. It would make much more sense to use the ESSMs, since you can pack more of them and you can leave the SM-2 for other missions.
 
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