Battle of Red Cliff, the Movie

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
How accurate are the military tactics and formations are in this movie. The clip that show the Goose Formation is very interesting. Did such tactic exists.

The west lack information of military techonology and tactics of China in this time period.
 

sinowarrior

Junior Member
don't think this movie has any historical value at all, and even the romance of three kingdom is not a historical text, but just a novel.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Romance of the Three Kingdoms is based on the Record of the Three Kingdoms by Zhou Yu. The latter is a historical record. In addition Sima Quan also recorded the events. The "Romance" is basically a novelization, meaning "romanticization" on actual events. The ROTK is actually written in the 14th Century during the Ming Dynasty, more than a millennia after the TK occurred.

As such the original printed text of the novel had illustrations of the characters wearing what is basically Ming vintage armor and Ming vintage weapons. For example the Guan Dao, the weapon which Guan Yu is most famous for, could not have been possibly been invented in the TK period, although such pole arm Daos are common among the elite forces of the Ming army.

Actual TK warfare should have been more like the late Han period, with main troops carrying halberd or "ge", with crossbow troops. Cavalry would be predominant with Cao Cao's forces, the Wei, since the Wei controls the northern borders and have access in recruiting northern nomadic horsemen, plus the grasslands could sustain growth and nurturing of large cavalry armies. The one difference in the TK period over the late Han period is the use of the stirrup, which allowed the use of heavier armored cavalry with melee weapons, basically a spear, basically horse mounted shock troops, aka knights.

What I find very interesting in the battle of Red Cliffs is the Wu's use of amphibious troops or commandos, meaning marines, along with amphibious assault vessels, to set Cao Cao's invasion fleet on fire. The marines were picked and trained to counter sea sickness and to fight in the decks of ships.
 

sinowarrior

Junior Member
well i think i read somewhere that Cao Cao tried to use his ships as bridge to cross the yangtze, and that is why he would tie them up, and Wu just burnt the bridge.
 

challenge

Banned Idiot
according to the director,it is two part series.
I have feeling the movie may end up just like oliver stone alexander. a flop at the box office.
 
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crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Red Cliff opened on July 10. So far its been doing well, with 26 million in China and S. Korea across the weekend. It opened with the best grosses of any movie in China ever. Still the question remains whether it will recuperate the money it put in, compared to the light of other Chinese movies of late ($213 million total world gross, out of a $15 million dollar budget for Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon).

As a note, the $80 million budget must be for two movies, since this is only Part 1 with Part 2 being shown next year.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Good reviews so far.

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AP Review: John Woo restores credibility to Chinese epics with 'Red Cliff'

HONG KONG: A true epic needs more than the grandeur of its landscapes, the lavishness of its sets and the sheer manpower of its battle scenes: It needs a truly epic story.

John Woo displays the crucial distinction in the magnificently told "Red Cliff," the Hong Kong director's triumphant return to Chinese film after 16 years in Hollywood.

Using old-fashioned good storytelling, "Red Cliff" restores credibility to the genre of Chinese historical epics that have often been tainted by pointlessly large-scaled and action-packed productions.

Woo is helped by a wealth of source material. "Red Cliff" is based on a storied historical period that has inspired video games and comic books — third-century prime minister Cao Cao's quest to unite a divided China.

But the director breathes new life into Cao and the colorful cast of characters that oppose him.

There's the ruthless and arrogant Cao, who dishes out beheading orders casually and lusts after the wife of one of the resistance fighters; his main rival, the avuncular Liu Bei, who despite Cao's invasion still finds time to weave grass shoes; Liu's pudgy and hotheaded lieutenant Zhang Fei, who never hesitates to speak his mind.

Liu's ally, Sun Quan, is a young ruler who struggles to find his confidence living under the shadow of his accomplished late brother and father.

Woo takes the time to introduce anecdotes that define each character. The epic battle scenes involving scores of extras and enhanced by special effects are still there — including a complex fight centered on a maze-like military formation — but most of "Red Cliff" is spent filling out the rich cast of characters.

The director is so keen on building an epic story that he even leaves the final showdown between the two sides to a second installment. "Red Cliff," which will be released in Asia this month, is the first part. The sequel will be released in December.

Woo's grand narrative justifies the two-parter. In "Red Cliff," he paints such a delightful ensemble of characters and sets up such a sharp contrast between the two opposing sides, bracing the audience for a titanic battle between Good and Evil in the sequel.

The outstanding storytelling and character building is reminiscent of "Star Wars." The story feels similarly epic; the characters similarly funky. Interestingly, the English subtitles cast Liu's side as the "rebels" and their opponents as the "empire" — the same terminology used in George Lucas' legendary sci-fi series.

And Woo injects humor and a modern sensibility into his characters, removing any feeling that these are outdated personalities hundreds of years old.

Japanese-Taiwanese heartthrob Takeshi Kaneshiro brings youthful playfulness and sarcasm to the role of Liu's famed military strategist, Zhuge Liang. At first glance, Kaneshiro lacks the gravitas to carry such an esteemed character in Chinese history, but he gives the character a unique, refreshing interpretation.

But the biggest surprise in the cast is Chinese actress Zhao Wei, who steals the show with her portrayal of Sun's spunky tomboy sister Sun Shangxiang, frustrated that her military ambitions are dismissed by the men around her.

With "Red Cliff," Woo shows he's still a masterful director to be reckoned with.

It's a feat made all the more outstanding by the difficulties he faced in the production. Two major stars — Chow Yun-fat and Cannes best actor winner Tony Leung Chiu-wai — dropped out at the last minute, although Leung later rejoined the cast. A stuntman died in an accident and torrential rains washed away part of an outdoor set in northern China.

It's unclear, however, if Woo's story can win over non-Asian audiences who are less familiar with the Chinese history. He is releasing a condensed, one-installment version in international markets. It remains to be seen if the abbreviated story will lose the character development and nuances that enabled "Red Cliff" to shine.
 

challenge

Banned Idiot
the titles should change to "party of Heroes"
anyone which is not familiar with plot may assume this is a romance movie.
 

batskcab

New Member
Reminds me of star wars. They should really hire some professionals for showing off the tactics, the formations and tactics shown in the movie will not work. IMO, it makes the ancient chinese look like clowns, much like any other chinese "epic". This is not to mention, the actors playing the soldiers all seem like conscripted peasants.
 
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