Issues on Intercepting Hypersonic Missile.

lilzz

Banned Idiot
Can you tell me the name of the missile that does all the things that you claim it to do? (Hyper-sonic sea skimming, extremely manueverable, with RWR to enable it to detect the radar signiture of an interceptor missile)

If I'm not mistaken, this missile does not exist...yet.)

No I didn't claim that like highly manueveable, and sea skimming.
I just propose a high attitude flying hypersonic missile capable of accleration with onboard radar and IR sensor to detect incoming interceptor.

On it's terminal phase, it will execute gravity acceleration. therefore it wouldn't slow down when drop to low attitude.

It's within today's technology.
 
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Roger604

Senior Member
Roger doesn't quite seem to want to accept how good the RAM is. Originally the mode of operation was to launch 2 missiles per target, but performance was so good that now only 1 missile is to be assigned per target. So far it's around 180 trials with a 95% success rate. Around 90% of which were skin-to-skin hits even though it's not a system designed for contact kill as the kill mechanism. Trials which included supersonic (mach 2.5), sea skimming and violently maneuvering Vandal targets. Scenarios included stream attacks as well. During techeval it scored a perfect 11 out of 11 kills. The reality is that RAM has performance which is proven, with actual intercepts against targets designed to emulate the supersonic systems Roger holds in awe. In some ways those targets even exceed the performance of those missiles they are to emulate. And supersonic missiles are not very maneuverable at all. Because they are so big and fast, all they manage are gentle curves unlike the more abrupt maneuvering that smaller subsonic missiles can afford. In any case, for supersonic missiles, trying to maneuver is actually defeating the purpose of their speed in the first place.

(Yawn) Please provide some links for these claims, particularly the claim that the supersonic targets engaged in randomized flight maneuvers. And do please continue to believe what the defense industry claims about its products in techevals. And certainly do believe their estimated price tag too.

Here are some of Aegis intercepts that the USN has conducted. There are 42 videos that include ballistic missile intercepts, simultaneous ballistic missile and cruise missile intercepts, multiple ballistic missile intercepts, and even some that involves the Japanese Kongo destroyers.

The US systems are continously proven in near real life scenarios.

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If you care to read this thread for the past few pages, you would see that we're discussing maneuverable anti-ship missiles.

It's not nearly so impressive to intercept an object that flies in a predictable trajectory, even if it is extremely fast. Even China can intercept ~mach 10 objects in space!

But to be able to intercept a supersonic missile flying an unpredictable path? That's a much higher level of technology that nobody has mastered.
 

Kongo

Junior Member
From your reaction, it is clear that there is simply no point in providing any source, since you'd just dismiss them out of hand. But I'll try. The info came mainly from "Stopping power - RAM goes head on with new threats", Jane's Navy International, Feb 2008. And no, TechEvals and OpEvals are not conducted by defense contractors, but the USN. So the results cannot be manipulated by the contractors. If you want to cast doubt, please try to be credible by showing that you are clear on the facts involved.

But to be able to intercept a supersonic missile flying an unpredictable path?

Done with regularity against Vandal targets. Closing your eyes and wishing facts away doesn't change anything. A skin-to-skin contact isn't needed. That's why warheads are placed on missiles. A bigger warhead means a larger kill radius, which allows for a greater miss distance.

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"The following day, Lassen also participated in two vandal exercises (VANDALEX) involving missile launches. The exercise is designed for ships to intercept hostile missiles with their own missiles. In both exercises, shore launched, remote-controlled drones were used to simulate the hostile missiles. One of the drones closed in on the ship at a speed of Mach 2.1 (approximately 1,500 miles per hour) grazing 50 feet above the ocean's surface. Lassen's SM-2 surface-to-air standard missile successfully intercepted the drone six miles from the ship."
 

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
If you care to read this thread for the past few pages, you would see that we're discussing maneuverable anti-ship missiles.

If you cared to watch all the videos then you would see that part of that exercise involves maneuvering anti-ship missiles. In particular one video shows an Aegis cruiser simulating shooting down a cruise missile and a ballistic missile at the SAME time. Then an actual shooting of 2 cruise missiles and 2 more with jammers.

It's not nearly so impressive to intercept an object that flies in a predictable trajectory, even if it is extremely fast. Even China can intercept ~mach 10 objects in space!


A satellite flies in a predictable trajectory. A ballistic missile is only predictable if you know where it is aimed at. If shooting down ballistic missiles were so simple, how come Russia or China has not shown such weapon systems.
 
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man overbored

Junior Member
Please, RAM is not a CIWS. A CIWS is a gattling gun. RAM is a point defense missile.

The one point you simply fail to understand is that a fast moving missile can easily maneuver outside of the envelope of an intercepting missile like a standard or ram. A sudden pitch, for example, will put the faster missile beyond the reach of the slow missile -- EVEN IF THE SLOW MISSILE TRIES TO PITCH TOO SIMPLY BECAUSE THE FASTER MISSILE TRAVELS FURTHER!

Your explanation of the AEGIS system is grossly misleading to say the least. Your interceptors do not travel at the speed of light! They are even slower than the incoming missiles and therefore are at a huge disadvantage if the trajectory of the incoming missile cannot be accuracy predicted.

No, Standard, ESSM and RAM are faster than known anti-ship missiles, Standard significantly so. Standards successfully shoot down Mach 2.8 Coyote targets in fleet exercises. Standard practice ( no pun intended ) is to use two Standards per incoming missile. The targets emit the exact same emissions as the threat systems, have special coatings applied ( can't say much more ) that gives them the RCS of the threat, their AFCS is programmed to fly the same flight profile as the threat system, complete with corkscrews and terminal dives. Standard is excellent in actual use, so is RAM.
To answer one comment, RAM does not rely on any shipboard system. It is possible to cue it from the Mk-23 TAS but this is not necessary. The missile tube cap is popped off and from that point on the missile's own seeker can detect the target and manage it's intercept autonomously. Recall what I said eariler, RAM like other IR missiles flies to it's target using proportional navigation, trying to maintain a constant angle between it and the target. If you look at RAM Block 2 is has a larger rocket motor for greater acceleration and range, and now used four canards to steer ( requiring more control actuators and thus adding weight and complexity ) to increase control authority, plus it is unclear if an IIR seeker has been fitted.
Standard would deal with the great majority of a massed missile attack. You all forget that RAM and CIWS are the final lines of defense. Standard and ESSM would attrite most of this notional massed missile attack well beyond the range of RAM. RAM would take care of the few leakers left over. In real life, the carrier's air wing will shoot down a very large proportion of the missile shooters long before they reach missile launch points, and Standard would engage them out at it's maximum range. A notional Flanker armed with 3M80 still has to come inside the hemisphere of Standard coverage to get at the carrier, since the Standard equipped escorts screen the carrier from well over the horizon from the carrier. When you have weapons with ranges exceeding 50 miles there is no need to group the escorts close to the carrier as in WWII. In actual practice the carrier doesn't see all of her escorts most of the time, but they are out there.
Ah ballistic missiles. The SM-3 is the version of Standard that uses thrust vectoring to maneuver the kill vehicle. Other versions of Standard do not do this. They have large blast fragmentation warheads so close is actually very good indeed. SM-3 requires a direct hit on the target. It uses IR terminal guidance since fast moving missiles, even in space, are very hot objects and thus more easily tracked this way. The impact point of a ballistic missile can be calculated accurately in seconds after being acquired by the Aegis radar. They are very predictable in flight actually. A maneuverable warhead so far has not materialized. The upcoming technology is to use multiple kill vehicles per missile to deal with mass ballistic missile attacks.

Here is an interesting article on Standard SM2 and SM3, discussing the possible use of SM2 against ballistic missiles entering the atmosphere. It discusses the degree of maneuverability of Standard against sea skimming missiles and the USN's outstanding battle management expertise. I will quote one paragraph before posting the link:

"The captain points out that after years of facing numerous antiship cruise missile threats, the Navy has honed its battle management/command, control, communications, computer, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (BM/C4ISR) to state-of-the-art technologies and skills. Forced into developing expertise to handle simultaneous missile and aircraft combat operations within a given battlespace, the Navy perfected an early warning and simultaneous target engagement capability. Salient real-time Navy planning functions also are available to meet U.S. ballistic missile defense requirements, he emphasizes."

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If the USN thinks Standard SM2 has the energy to take out a ballistic missile warhead consider then how high it's performance must be. SM2 is the anti-aircraft version, not the BDM version.
 

Roger604

Senior Member
"The following day, Lassen also participated in two vandal exercises (VANDALEX) involving missile launches. The exercise is designed for ships to intercept hostile missiles with their own missiles. In both exercises, shore launched, remote-controlled drones were used to simulate the hostile missiles. One of the drones closed in on the ship at a speed of Mach 2.1 (approximately 1,500 miles per hour) grazing 50 feet above the ocean's surface. Lassen's SM-2 surface-to-air standard missile successfully intercepted the drone six miles from the ship."

:rofl:That's your "source"??

It just says that some drones were launched at the ship and shot down. How can you possibly claim that these drones engaged in randomized evasive maneuvers? The article certainly doesn't! :rofl:

Please... do try to get a clear idea of what we're talking about before making some silly, exaggerated claims.

If you cared to watch all the videos then you would see that part of that exercise involves maneuvering anti-ship missiles. In particular one video shows an Aegis cruiser simulating shooting down a cruise missile and a ballistic missile at the SAME time. Then an actual shooting of 2 cruise missiles and 2 more with jammers.

See my comment to Kongo above.

Your videos show some successful interceptions of missiles with predictable targets. NONE show anything remotely resembling an interception of a supersonic missile doing a randomized evasive maneuver.

You show me actual video footage of a supersonic missile doing a randomized evasive maneuver -- and a standard or ram or ciws intercepting it -- and I'll concede the argument to you.

Otherwise, please refrain from making claims that YOUR OWN VIDEOS don't back up! :D

A satellite flies in a predictable trajectory. A ballistic missile is only predictable if you know where it is aimed at. If shooting down ballistic missiles were so simple, how come Russia or China has not shown such weapon systems.

A ballistic trajectory is simple physics... like how artillery can figure out where their shells will land when they fire something into the air.

You need to have good radar systems to acquire and track the ballistic missile, and then you'll know the exact trajectory it will take and calculate an interception point. This is not the case for a maneuvering target.

The targets emit the exact same emissions as the threat systems, have special coatings applied ( can't say much more ) that gives them the RCS of the threat, their AFCS is programmed to fly the same flight profile as the threat system, complete with corkscrews and terminal dives.

Go ahead and show me an actual video of a supersonic missile doing random evasive maneuvers, and the interceptor tracking it, following its movements and finally hitting it.

Here is an interesting article on Standard SM2 and SM3, discussing the possible use of SM2 against ballistic missiles entering the atmosphere. It discusses the degree of maneuverability of Standard against sea skimming missiles and the USN's outstanding battle management expertise. I will quote one paragraph before posting the link:

LOL. This article says nothing about degree of maneuverability of standard!

It says, "This two-stage SM-2 Block IV, for use against highly evasive aircraft and cruise missile targets, is in development and low-rate production, with limited but growing deployment at sea."

Which obviously means that the current blocks of standards out there can't capable of intercepting evasive missile! My point is proven perfectly. Even the navy itself, once you get past all the bravado and exaggerations that seem pretty typical of these types of people... recognizes that its defenses have a glaring weakness.
 
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Kongo

Junior Member
Roger, are you being deliberately daft? The source for shooting down of manoevering targets is from ""Stopping power - RAM goes head on with new threats", Jane's Navy International, Feb 2008". The Lassen shootdown is just proof that supersonic missiles can be engaged. You want to see sea skimming supersonic and manoevering targets engaged?

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But I know where you will go with this. Even when given video proof, you will then accuse the target of not engaging in 'randomised' manoever, so you will demand us to give you the software and hardware circuitary as 'proof'. Your way is to ask for proof way beyond what anybody can reasonably give, and far beyond the level of proof that's commonly accepted on this board with respect to Chinese systems. If that's how you want to play it, fine, do feel free to carry on believing that supersonic weapons are invincible. Even China must be stupid for getting more subsonic missiles that can be shot down and forsaking supersonic antiship missiles when supersonic missiles are so invincible.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Go ahead and show me an actual video of a supersonic missile doing random evasive maneuvers, and the interceptor tracking it, following its movements and finally hitting it.

One acryoynm for you: OPSEC.


LOL. This article says nothing about degree of maneuverability of standard!

It says, "This two-stage SM-2 Block IV, for use against highly evasive aircraft and cruise missile targets, is in development and low-rate production, with limited but growing deployment at sea."

Which obviously means that the current blocks of standards out there can't capable of intercepting evasive missile! My point is proven perfectly. Even the navy itself, once you get past all the bravado and exaggerations that seem pretty typical of these types of people... recognizes that its defenses have a glaring weakness.
Block IV was deployed in 1999 FYI... the article is a little dated by around 6 years.

And I suggest you cool it; you are on the verge of flaming.
 

Roger604

Senior Member
ou want to see sea skimming supersonic and manoevering targets engaged?

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Taking a look at the video, the final approaches to the testing ships are all pretty much straight flying approaches.

Take a look at time signature 3:16 to 3:22 -- as the subsonic missile is launched, it goes through some maneuvers hundreds of miles away from the ship and then goes low to sea skimming altitude. But the final approach is straight toward the ship.

The video 3:29-3:32 shows a successful intercept for that missile (because it came close enough to destroy it with a proximity blast), but the video shows that the missile was actually traveling straight when the intercept occurred!

The next tests were supersonic missiles traveling in a sea skimming and high dive profile. I never disputed that an AEGIS ship is capable of intercepting these kinds of threats, since even the illustration in the video (3:49 to 3:52) shows that they were traveling straight toward the ship.

The only test that comes close to appearing to be a maneuvering, supersonic target missile is the one that appears at time signature 4:22.

The narrator says that the targets were two supersonic missiles executing a 10G weave. But taking a look at time signature 4:22, it's clear that between each "turn" the missiles actually travel straight for more than a hundred miles! Each lateral movement between turns is as long as the length of Santa Cruz Island depicted in the video!

I don't believe it is outside the capability of ESSM to engage a supersonic missile as it is traveling laterally (from the perspective of the ship) in a straight line for more than a hundred miles. But it's a totally different story to find a video of ESSM (or RAM or standard) that's rolling and maneuvering along with the target missile as it's in the middle of executing high G maneuvers.

But maybe that's the strength of the ESSM (and other missiles) -- they are relatively weak at interception when the target is the middle of a high G maneuver, but they will catch the target when it is traveling in a straight line!
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Taking a look at the video, the final approaches to the testing ships are all pretty much straight flying approaches.

That's because if the missile is making its final approach, it HAS to fly straight at the target otherwise it would loose its lock and would miss...
 
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