Unrest in Tibet!!

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D

Deleted member 675

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Then explain further because it sounds like you were arguing that because the Tibetans have no country of their own

I didn't talk about having a country of their own, I talked about the fact that the Chinese government is a single, unified body that has more influence than anyone else in Tibet and can be reached within a few minutes.

then why did you bother replying to my initial post

Because you were misrepresenting the attitudes of others, including my own country! Just because you were not talking to me doesn't mean you can make false accusations against others with impunity.

I don't how you can argue against that it's wrong to kill innocent civilains.

I haven't. For the last time please stop putting words in my mouth.

We do know that as from eye-witness accounts from Western tourists that saw Tibetan thugs...

And we also have reports that innocent Tibetans have been attacked by the Chinese Police, so again, why do you refuse to accept Tibetans have been wrongfully attacked?
 

hallo84

New Member
Hallo, that is a gross exaggeration. Some Tibetans have got out of control and committed crimes, but there is no ethnic cleansing. Far more Tibetans have been killed over the past decades by the Chinese State than non-Tibetans at the hands of Tibetans, so if there is any ethnic cleansing going on you've got it backwards.
Far more Tibetans have been killed by Tibetans. So what's your point? Did the Tibetan population shrink after chinese take over or did it grow?

It became like that when Beijing encouraged the flood of non-Tibetan immigrants into Tibet and then did its best to keep the Tibetans compliant through coercion.
You mean the Hui and Han deserve to die and their property burned to the ground just because they found a new home? The Tibet for Tibetans mentality is ethnic confrontational at its core and you know it.


If Beijing jails people for trying to use peaceful means of addressing problems then they only leave people with violence. It's sad, but it's the truth.
Tough. That's what democracy is all about. Talk all you want but no one has to listen or even pretend to. That however does not detract from the fact that there is nothing to gain from violence but harsh repercussions.

Please do not make unpleasant threats to control what I say.
I really don't care what you say nor whish to control it but spewing propaganda while sitting on the side lines makes you a hypacrite. If you support Tibet independance with violence then go to Tibet and follow your cause. I know where I'll be seeing you.
 
D

Deleted member 675

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The informed guesswork of a pro is worth rather more than that of those who are not.

Guesswork is never worth anything.

btw you completely ignored my point about Mugabe on the 70's and 80's, poor move for your arguments credibility.

Because your "argument" wasn't worth discussing. So every person that is well respected as a resistance leader or whatever should be compared to the worst examples? That's not sensible in the slightest and doesn't do your arguments' credibility any good.

With our progressive Arch Bishop of Canterbury trying to introduce Sharia law, I'm not so sure if that is true

Maybe you could actually comment on Zhang's statement and explain how that didn't cause tensions, rather than bring up irrelevancies?

I say he still dreams of marching his people back to bad old dark ages of ignorance, superstition, serfdom and slavery

I say he still dreams of being able to free his people such that they can decide what to do rather than be told by people who don't understand them that they have to eat, sleep and drink Chinese capitalism.

His idea of Peace seems to have killed quite a lot of people over the last 50 years.

Far more people have died due to Chinese crackdowns than any Tibetan-led drives for independence.
 
D

Deleted member 675

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Far more Tibetans have been killed by Tibetans. So what's your point?

No, my point is that more Tibetans have been killed by non-Tibetans. Read what I said.

You mean the Hui and Han deserve to die and their property burned to the ground just because they found a new home?

No, I said that the "us v. you" mentality was caused by the Chinese government encouraging non-Tibetans to move to Tibet to make the region less Tibetan and more "loyal".

Tough. That's what democracy is all about.

Actually democracy is about letting people complain about things without being arrested or beaten up.

If you support Tibet independance with violence

I don't. I support Tibetan rights, and that includes not being the victims of violence by the Chinese State.
 

Vlad Plasmius

Junior Member
They were peaceful until Tibetans were assaulted by Chinese Police/thugs. Then the long-term resentment towards outsiders boiled over and things turned nasty. :(

While I'm not entirely certain I think it was arrests, not beating, which spurred the violence. Also I think you should do a bit more research into this matter as ethnic tensions between Han Chinese or Hui Muslims and Tibetans has some history to it with violence on both sides in the past.

This seriously damages the reputation of the Tibetan independence movement. It certainly damages their reputation among the Chinese people. Stuff like this just sows more hatred between the two sides. I wouldn't be surprised if there are some retaliatory attacks by ethnic Chinese on Tibetans assuming there haven't already been some.

Actually the average Tibetan's life is probably better, since they are part of China, so much more resources the government invested to tibet, even the Dali lama acknowledged that.

Of course, a side effect of that investment is an influx of non-Tibetan migrants looking to cash in and many Tibetans see it as some attempt to destroy their culture or subjugate them. Even though most moving to Tibet are probably just attracted to the benefits of migration they're seen as a tool of oppression.

On a more interesting note, the Pope has been mum about the whole situation and a few months back he canceled a meeting with the Dalai Lama. Seems the Vatican is really intent on cozying up to the Chinese.
 

Hantang

Just Hatched
Registered Member
They were peaceful until Tibetans were assaulted by Chinese Police/thugs. Then the long-term resentment towards outsiders boiled over and things turned nasty. :(

You call this peaceful?
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The motorist (Han Chinese) was attached brutally without any reason. This was shot by a Canadian traveler in Lhasa.

I seldom post here but visit here often and have seen enough of your baseless attacks without any real understanding of China related issues.

Here is another video which I think made some good points:

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hallo84

New Member
No, my point is that more Tibetans have been killed by non-Tibetans. Read what I said.
Oh so Tibetan red guards (stupid youths much like the current mobsters) killing Tibetans during the cultural revolution is now somehow a Chinese fault?

No, I said that the "us v. you" mentality was caused by the Chinese government encouraging non-Tibetans to move to Tibet to make the region less Tibetan and more "loyal".
Great just fling more mud while people are dying. I know you'll be sleeping better at night knowing evil Beijing caused Tibetans to stone Han chinese.

My my what great justification for killing someone.

Actually democracy is about letting people complain about things without being arrested or beaten up.
Maybe you missed the part about peaceful protest annually and pretty much tolerated by Beijing.


I don't. I support Tibetan rights, and that includes not being the victims of violence by the Chinese State.
Who's doing the killing now? I don't see CCP rounding up Tibetans to be stoned or gutted.
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
This is interesting, after conducting the most violent attacks in Tibet in recent years they seems to be preparing more violent campaigns. Either the DL is genuinely being sidelined or that this is just part of a media campaign before formally dropping all pretense of non-violence which I think none really take seriously anyway after last week's violence.


Title : Dalai Lama under fire from Tibetan radicals
By :
Date : 18 March 2008 0237 hrs (SST)
URL :
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DHARAMSHALA, India : Tibetan spiritual leader the Dalai Lama came in for tough criticism on Monday from prominent radical exiles demanding a review of his non-violent campaign for autonomy within China.

The leader of the pro-independence Tibetan Youth Congress publicly criticised his refusal to call for a boycott of the Beijing Olympics and urged protests in the Himalayan region to continue.

Tsewang Rigzin said an explosion of protests and rioting in the vast Himalayan region signalled the 72-year-old Dalai Lama, who has lived in northern Indian since fleeing Tibet after a failed uprising in 1959, was out of step with his people.

"China does not deserve to host the Olympics. Human-rights issues inside Tibet have deteriorated. It's evident they do not deserve the Olympics," Rigzin told reporters in Dharamshala, the hilltop base of the Tibetan exile community.

The Dalai Lama had on Sunday condemned China's "rule of terror" and "cultural genocide" in Tibet, but said Beijing should be "reminded to be a good host" of the Olympics - and did not call for a boycott.

According to Tibetan exile leaders and aides to the Dalai Lama, the Chinese crackdown in Tibet left about 100 Tibetans dead, though it could be "hundreds."

China has rejected those estimates, saying on Monday that Tibetan rioters killed 13 "innocent civilians" during the protests and also said it did not use lethal force to quell the rioting.

Rigzin said there was now mounting frustration among Tibetans over the Dalai Lama's so-called "Middle Way" policy - a non-violent campaign for autonomy rather than independence for his homeland, a region that China considers to be an undisputed part of its territory.

"I disagree with his stance," Rigzin said.

"There is a ground frustration within the Tibetan community, especially in the young generation. After six years of dialogue (with Beijing), there are still fundamental differences," the prominent activist said.

"There are a lot of frustrations. I certainly hope the Middle Way approach will be reviewed," Rigzin said. "As we can see from the protests here and all over the world, the Tibetan people remain committed to achieving independence."

The ever-cheerful Dalai Lama argues his approach is the most realistic, with China certain to never give up its sovereignty over Tibet.

But many younger Tibetans say this considered approach has not yielded any results, with his people continuing to flee their homes and China continuing to cement its grip over Tibet.

"Everyone knows my principle - knows (it is) completely non-violence. Violence is almost like suicide," the Nobel peace laureate said on Sunday.

Tibetan exile leader Samdhong Rinpoche also said the alternative to non-violence was difficult to even contemplate, saying: "I cannot easily believe the Tibetan people would resort to violence."

But Lhagyal Tsering, a teacher in Dharamshala, signalled many of the over 100,000 refugees living in India may start looking elsewhere for leadership.

"We're demanding a peace dialogue between His Holiness and the Chinese. But at the moment, Dalai Lama is out of the picture. It's a Tibetan people's movement," he said.

The speaker of the Tibetan parliament-in-exile, Karma Chophel - who is a radical often at odds with the Dalai Lama - called for unity.

"We should all recognise that the situation is very urgent. Whether the middle way or something else, we should get together," he said.

Meanwhile, India on Monday pressed neighbouring China for a "non-violent" solution to unrest in Tibet, as opposition lawmakers stormed out of parliament saying New Delhi's response was insufficient.

"We are distressed by reports of the unsettled situation and violence in Lhasa," Indian Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee told parliament.

"We hope all those involved will work to improve the situation and remove the causes of such trouble in Tibet... through dialogue and non-violent means." - AFP/de
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
I didn't talk about having a country of their own, I talked about the fact that the Chinese government is a single, unified body that has more influence than anyone else in Tibet and can be reached within a few minutes.

No, you were arguing that because Tibetans don't have a voice of communication to the outside world, violence was okay since it's their only means of communication. Again, same with the Iraq insurgency.

But then if what you are saying were true, then we wouldn't hear about what's happening in Tibet, would we? Like no one is crying about Tibetans in the world because the Chinese have cut off communications?

Because you were misrepresenting the attitudes of others, including my own country! Just because you were not talking to me doesn't mean you can make false accusations against others with impunity.

Like you don't do that here. You always displace what others have said to me. How about how you bring up Japan in posts that have nothing to do with Japan.

Have you heard any critic denounce Tibetan thug violence upon innocent civilians? And the Western media and governments are calling for only restraint from the Chinese side? Haven't heard anyone call for Tibetan restraint. So my point was valid.

And we also have reports that innocent Tibetans have been attacked by the Chinese Police, so again, why do you refuse to accept Tibetans have been wrongfully attacked?


What reports? Only hear-say. Westerners witnessed Chinese, Hui, and Japanese being attacked. If the violence started with the police, wouldn't any of these tourists have proof of such attacks on Tibetans like they do with innocent people being attacked by Tibetan thugs? I saw from western accounts hearing gun shots to which the Western media interpreted as violence against Tibetans. Western tourists also witnessed Tibetans with guns. Foe someone always wants proof, you seem not to need it for your arguments.
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
Well I will start off with these intresting article not ussually seen in mainstream western media that are obviously biased. I have been monitoring this situation very closely lately as it seems to draw memories of my childhood being oppressed by Indonesian government. Makes me think why does everyone cares about tibetan so much and yet no one, absolutely no one (including China) cares about overseas chinese being oppressed and suffering a true cultural (and to some extent ethnic)genocide in the last few decades?

Never knew you're from Indonesia, Autumn Child. Actually, like the Indonesian uprising in the 60s, the one in Tibet in I think the late 50s was said to be heavily influenced by CIA as part of the anti-Communist campaigns. Many reports of CIA pulling the strings of Dalai Lama. Don't know abt now, but in the anti-Communist hysteria of the 50s & 60s, I'd be more surprised if it's not true.
 
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