Despite India's protests, Vietnam buys arms from Pakistan

New Delhi, Aug 17 (IANS) Ignoring concerns of its long standing ally India, Vietnam has purchased a second consignment of small arms from Pakistan.
According to Jane's Defence Weekly, Vietnam acquired 100 SMG-PK 9 mm submachine guns and 50 sniper rifles from the state-run Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) in Rawalpindi as a follow-on order to an equal number of similar weapons it purchased last year.

The SMG-PK is configured on the Heckler & Koch MP5 series of which four models are available.

India, which has burgeoning defence relations with Hanoi, 'discreetly' protested the acquisition by Vietnam's police ministry for its counter-terrorism unit, Jane's reports, but to little avail.

Military analysts in New Delhi said India's hesitancy in vindicating its assurances to Vietnam of providing it varied military hardware, including the locally designed surface-to-surface Prithvi missile, could well be responsible for Hanoi turning to Pakistan, albeit to partially meet its defence requirements.

India's vast military-industrial complex also does not produce submachine guns or sniper rifles, despite years of attempts by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to design both.

India recently imported sniper rifles from Israel while a contract to import submachine guns and carbines is under consideration by the army.

'India is handicapped by its excessive caution in boldly exercising its strategic options coupled with its highly complex and uncoordinated procedures required to export military goods,' Major General Sheru Thapliyal (retd) said. In a world of quick shifting strategic alignments, India will be left behind if it does not resolve both these shortcomings, he warned.

India strongly supported North Vietnam in its war with the US in the 1960s and 1970s in the face of tremendous Western opposition and began developing defence ties with it in the mid-1990s as part of its wider Look East approach.

This strategy proliferated in recent years as nuclear rival China, with its peaceful rise, has steadily been fashioning political, economic and military dependencies around its strategic periphery particularly in East and Southeast Asia through multilateral economic and military engagement.

There is also a growing feeling amongst Indian and Western analysts that Asia's strategic architecture created over decades by the US through its military deployments and engagement policies appears to be crumbling, giving way to an ascendant China.

This, in turn, was fostering a deep sense of uncertainty and insecurity among many Asian states, including India, even though diplomatic, military economic and political ties between Delhi and Beijing were steadily improving.

By developing defence ties with Vietnam, however, India is aiming to counter China's firmly established 'string of pearls' strategy of clinching regional military and security agreements from the Persian Gulf to the South China Sea and of expanding its profile and assets in the Indian Ocean region.

To tighten the maritime 'noose' around India, China is investing heavily in developing Gwadar port on nuclear ally Pakistan's western Makran coast and nurturing long standing military, political and commercial links with Myanmar.

Additionally, China has firmed up strategic, defence and economic ties with Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka and the Maldives.

Strategists term India's tentative response as its 'string of diamonds' strategy whereby it seeks to build partnerships and relations with friends and allies like Vietnam to build regional partnerships.

As part of this feeble riposte to China's regional pro-activity, India recently reconfirmed its defence ties with Vietnam providing for bilateral military cooperation, sale of military wares like the locally developed advanced light helicopter (ALH) and assistance in overhauling and providing spares to Hanoi's ageing MiG series fighter aircraft.

The agreement also provides a framework under which Vietnamese officers would train the Indian Army in jungle warfare and counter-insurgency operations.

It also includes bilateral cooperation between India's Coast Guard and the Vietnamese Sea Police in combating piracy, reciprocal visits by senior military officers and regular exchange of intelligence.

'Agreements are meaningless unless delivered upon,' Thapliyal said. Otherwise, friends will seek help elsewhere, he added.

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Now even Vietnam buys arms from Pakistan
I wonder why China doesn't import some small arms such as mp5s, g3s from Pakistan to upgrade its armed forces?

Simple: China doesn't use those calibers and Pakistan's factories have not enough capacity to produce weapons for China.......................

sumdud said:

Simple: China doesn't use those calibers and Pakistan's factories have not enough capacity to produce weapons for China.......................

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Supply vs demand..

Pakistani arms are remakably well made and tighly regulated ensuring higher quality standards vs mass production but lower quality.

Im sure if China or any other country placed a large order, the Pakistani ordinance factories would enlarge and accomodate the demand...:coffee:

I believe that whatever the Pakistani is able to build in term of small arms, the chinese are also able to build thus there really is nothing that interest China.

i disagree.. Pakistan's ordinance factory and arms industry has developed independently and has significantly acquired an indigenous as well as a competitive egdge particularly when comparing its arms, production and equipment to internationally available arms. Much of its arms industry is at or above the international standards.

Several variants of reverse-engineered and modified Russian aircrafts that Pakistan acquired from China(f-5. f-6, f-7, A-5) underwent considerable scrutiny prior to being officially expected by the fighting arms of Pakistan's armed forces. These were further re-modified, upgraded and enhanced according to Pakistani specifications which were held to a much higher standard than those of the PLAAF. Interestingly, after the Pakistani's made several upgrades, the Chinese airforce often followed suit realizing that the Pakistani modifications were quite beneficial.

In many regards, much of Pakistan's arms industry has been developed at par with Western standards much above the quality standards practiced in China today.

While many view the co-operation in recent years between Pakistan and China in a biased manner, the contributions and ingenuity of the Pakistani's in the program have often gone unpublished and in many regards, underappreciated.

The current co-development programs between the two countries are a win-win situation for both countries. Again, regarding the arms industry, it would be quite prudent and in China's interest to purchase (and invest) in Pakistan's arms industry which is quietly developing a reputable name for itself in the global arms market much at par and/or in a similar fashion as to that of Israel's and South Africa.

PakTopGun said:

Just as an example, (this is just to examplify the manner in which the Pakistani army procured its standard machine gun).. Pakistani army personnel operate the American M16.. While the Gun has excellent accuracy, its practicality and reliabilty (as attested by American servicemen themselves) has often been put in doubt especially after the Vietname war and has resulted in several different versions of the piece. The Pakistani's looked into the gun, researched its abilities and methods to improve upon it and developed their own version of the M16, using high quality, resilent and reliable german steel, and several indigenous modifications and upgrades which have rendered the Pakistani version of the gun (known as the G3) into one incredible piece of machinery.

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Unfortunately that is not true at all. The G3 and M16 are two completely different firearms. The G3 that Pakistan is producing is nothing more than a copy of the HK G3 (I think it was a transfer of technology that Pakistan pursued). The M16 is an American made weapon and the G3 is a German made weapon. Both fire different cartridges and operate quite differently internally speaking.


"During the early- to mid-1950s West Germany, like the other NATO countries, faced the need for rearming its army for the newest common 7.62x51mm NATO caliber small arms. Initially Germans preferred the Belgian FN FAL rifle, and adopted it circa 1956 under the designation of G1. Due to obvious reasons Germany wanted to manufacture its military rifles, and attempted to buy a manufacturing license for FAL, but Belgium rejected the deal. So, Germany turned to the another design, available from Spanish company CETME, and known as the CETME mod. A rifle. Germany bought the manufacturing license for CETME rifle and transferred it to the Heckler und Koch (HK) company, located in Oberndorf. HK slightly modified the CETME design, and in 1959 the Bundeswehr (W.Germany Army) finally adopted the CETME / Heckler - Koch rifle as G3 (Gewehr 3 - Rifle, [model] 3). Since that time and until the 1995 the G3 in various modifications served as a general issue shoulder weapon not only for German Armed forces, but also for many other countries. Those include Greece, Iran, Mexico, Norway, Pakistan, Portugal, Sweden, Turkey and many other countries. Total of more than 50 countries during the last 40 years issued the G3 to its forces. The G3 was or still is manufactured in countries like the Greece, Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, Portugal and others. "

You are correct... for some reson, I was told that information by someone in the services while I was in Pakistan.. perhaps I misinterpreted the details and mixed it up with the name G3 as I did some online research which showed what you are saying to be correct. I must apologize for that!!

The only thing I can think of is that perhaps the fellow I spoke to belonged to a specialized arm of the army which operated a variant of the M16...

Once again my apologies about that, but I hope you were getting the point of what I was getting at with the rest of my comment.:coffee:

I don't think any country IN THE WORLD can compete with Chinese small arms manufacturing. This is a clear case where EXPERIENCE matters. For the sake of objectivity I used to sell firearms in the United States. I am very well versed on the history of small arms and the politics involved.

The Black Panthers were armed with mostly small arms from China. They sold Chairman Mao books during the day and used part of the revenue to procure cheap Chinese made small arms. This cost effectiveness is what has made Chinese small arms so attractive around the world.

No country on earth can match China's quality for small arms production on a PPP, or purchasing power parity. My goodness I remember the good old days of Mak-90s for $35. The gangs could arm whole neighborhoods for pennies on the dollar compared to ANY western made firearms. Kalashnikov himself openly talks about how the Chinese have undercut Russian production. This of course excludes salvaged weapons. Any third world armorer can salvage parts for a weapon. But you need heavy industrial equipment such as a lathe to make firearms from scratch metal.

Norinco itself is responsible for building one of the CHEAPEST sniper rifles. I remember in a Soldier of Fortune article the Norinco Dragonuv was tested. It hit repeated .75 MOA. Fucking awesome for a CHEAP mass produced military semi-auto rifle. Our store could not keep them on the shelf.

People used to talk so much crap about Chinese small arms, specifically the quality of the materials used and their inaccuracies. Norinco openly met the challenge and since the mid 80's made great weapons that were cheap and reliable. Because of the shit talking Norinco decided to make accurate firearms with match grade barrels. These were hard to get, because they were the CHEAPEST match grade barrels made in the world. They also started to use better materials. For example the current Norinco made M1A uses higher grade steel than the American counterpart, SA non USGI spec or even custom makers such as Fulton ARMORY.

Our store luckily had the Chinese connections, and were improving the image of Chinese small arms. LA county Sherriff’s Deputies loved our cheap match grade small arms. They helped to get the word out that the Chinese were serious about improving their standards. Match grade 1911s for ~$300. And no that applies to Norinco not Brolin AKA Broken Arms, made by a Taiwan Lin family.

Don’t compare a cheap Chinese made weapon and say it sucks in comparison to a US made firearm that costs 10X as much and say it is superior. Instead get the higher grade Chinese made firearm and compare it to the more expensive US made firearm and it is clear Chinese arms could supply an army for pennies on the dollar with comparable quality. Especially when you compare ammunition there is no way to out manufacture Chinese small arms.

You can talk to all the military blah blah you want. You need to have been in the industry and seen the politics that came about. If Chinese weapons are so inferior then why doesn’t the US lift the embargo against Chinese small arms and munitions? Simple because they would put a lot of US firearms companies out of business with their labor cost advantages.

That is exactly why Clinton banned Chinese made weapons and munitions. He wanted to get the cheap stuff out of the gangs in the US. He also saw the long term effects this had on the US firearms industry as more than 90% are now foreign owned. Another example is the fact that the UN doesn’t use US made M-16s, they use Chinese ones because of the cost effectiveness. This contract loss was the turning point for Chinese small arms manufacturing.

Incidentally what you said about the M-16 was wrong. The problem had to do with the powder being used, the fact that idiots did not clean their weapons and the lack of a forward assist. Because of the tropical terrain barrels were also hard chromed. These issues greatly enhanced the reliability of the M-16.

Now when I hear about the NEW latest developments in small arms, I kind of laugh. This is because there really is not much advancement in small arms. Maybe the laser and optics. But the firearm itself still relies upon the same technology. At this point of the game you worry less about the quality of the materials than you do the fitment and alignment.

Hence custom weapons use match grade barrels and actions with fire control groups that are fully tuned and balanced. Some people call it action trueing or blue printing. But tight fitment is less reliable and hence NOT FOR THE MILITARY. Reliability is the key to mass produced firearms.

Also Pakistan did not upgrade the M-16 into the H&K G3. I don’t know how you got the Spanish CETME from Eugene Stoner’s design.