WW II Historical Thread, Discussion, Pics, Videos
- Thread starter Jeff Head
- Start date
I think you've missed my point completely! Be that as it may, as long as you're happy living in your world.
@hijiki
A Hella lot questions which are merely deflections if any.
The Japanese army engaged in battle without morals and ethics ( the allied forces would say that wholeheartedly.) it is inconceivable to determine if that same Japanese would have shown mercy against civilians.
I don't think they deserve an answer but it is for the interest of lazy readers that I arrange for, many a question you raised in your lengthy post here-
> Sure brutality was carried out by the Japanese but was it really as widespread as typical MSM articles make it appear?
Answer to that -
> If the Japanese were so bad, why would they grant him a full administration?
> would Wang Jingwei really have been worse than Chinag Kai-shek or Mao Zedong?
> How intense would Japanese administration be over the Wang regime?
> Or how was Korea or Taiwan during colonial years of Japan?
(The GDP per capita of both those places was roughly half that of the main Japanese islands.)
How did you get the GDP per capita of Korea and Taiwan during those times? Also, weren't Korea and Taiwan population dense regions? Also, can you provide evidence that it was Japan which built Korea and Taiwan?
>the Japanese government tried to get a meeting with FDR but the US side refused it. They just say "get out of China", no details. What does that really mean?
> What should be done with Wang Jingwei and his regime? Once leaving, when could the oil embargo be expected to be lifted?
>Manchuria in 1931. Yes, it was Japanese expansion. Surely the Japanese didn't have to take it. But considering other things going on, was it really that bad of a move?
>was the Japanese invasion of Manchuria really that bad?
-----------—-----------—--------------
You not only sound like an apologist but also someone willing to manipulate the facts because it isn't nice to the position that you seek to defend. Almost all your questions go along the lines of or could be summed up as
Since there was a lot of infighting within China, was the Japanese invasion a bad thing?
It is very hard to defend US forces committing war crimes in Vietnam or Korea, it is very hard to defend the fact that millions did die in the excesses of Chinese maoist cultural revolution, it is very hard to defend the fact that Soviet Union was a really brutal state.
But nothing is hard as defending the atrocities of Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan. You sir, do make that job seem not so hard.
Let the readers decide. The future is evermore bright for the Chinese (with or without the PRC). That's all that matters (for me atleast).
A Hella lot questions which are merely deflections if any.
The Japanese army engaged in battle without morals and ethics ( the allied forces would say that wholeheartedly.) it is inconceivable to determine if that same Japanese would have shown mercy against civilians.
I don't think they deserve an answer but it is for the interest of lazy readers that I arrange for, many a question you raised in your lengthy post here-
> Sure brutality was carried out by the Japanese but was it really as widespread as typical MSM articles make it appear?
Answer to that -
> If the Japanese were so bad, why would they grant him a full administration?
> would Wang Jingwei really have been worse than Chinag Kai-shek or Mao Zedong?
> How intense would Japanese administration be over the Wang regime?
> Or how was Korea or Taiwan during colonial years of Japan?
(The GDP per capita of both those places was roughly half that of the main Japanese islands.)
How did you get the GDP per capita of Korea and Taiwan during those times? Also, weren't Korea and Taiwan population dense regions? Also, can you provide evidence that it was Japan which built Korea and Taiwan?
>the Japanese government tried to get a meeting with FDR but the US side refused it. They just say "get out of China", no details. What does that really mean?
> What should be done with Wang Jingwei and his regime? Once leaving, when could the oil embargo be expected to be lifted?
>Manchuria in 1931. Yes, it was Japanese expansion. Surely the Japanese didn't have to take it. But considering other things going on, was it really that bad of a move?
>was the Japanese invasion of Manchuria really that bad?
-----------—-----------—--------------
You not only sound like an apologist but also someone willing to manipulate the facts because it isn't nice to the position that you seek to defend. Almost all your questions go along the lines of or could be summed up as
Since there was a lot of infighting within China, was the Japanese invasion a bad thing?
It is very hard to defend US forces committing war crimes in Vietnam or Korea, it is very hard to defend the fact that millions did die in the excesses of Chinese maoist cultural revolution, it is very hard to defend the fact that Soviet Union was a really brutal state.
But nothing is hard as defending the atrocities of Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan. You sir, do make that job seem not so hard.
Let the readers decide. The future is evermore bright for the Chinese (with or without the PRC). That's all that matters (for me atleast).
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
I think Hijiki try to justify Japan aggression against China contrary to the fact. And that is exactly the problem with Japan instead accept the responsibility,contrition and make amed She try to weasel out of the responsibility. So long Japan never accept the responsibility there will no be true reconciliation between Japan and China .
The reason is the American I guess Whereas in Germany they completely root out the Nazis in Japan they didn't purge the fascist completely IN fact Nobosuke Kishi who is Shinzo Abe grandfather was elected as Japan prime minister from 1950's
The American didn't completely rooted out the faschist because of Korean war needing ally and bulwark agains Chinese commie she purposed prevented the true reconciliation between China and Japan If anything they want to prolong the animosity between 2 eg Giving Diaoyu island to Japan etc
Germany did completely acknowledge the guilt and responsibility for starting the war And she anchored the reconciliation with French by submiting themselves to Iron and Coal union that progress into Europen common market and now Euro. Later on she give up territory in Eas Prussia to Poland and Willy brandt start the Oost politic reconciliation with eastern Europe and Russia.
I watch NHK programs there are alot of program about the Hiroshima bomb and how suffering it brought to Japanese people But not much program about the cruelty and devastation,suffering that Japan brought to China or Asia in general.
That say much about how they feel about themselves. Ther Japanese elite completely missed the boat They will be left behind in China led Asia and return to their traditional role on the periphery of Sino world.
I have no problem with Japanese people and I don't believe sin is inherited What their grandfather did has no bearing on the Japanese youth But they have to acknowledge the history and white washing it
The fact remains that, by polls conducted, Japanese youth overwhelmingly hold animosity towards Chinese while the Chinese youth less so.
I've no respect for such nations or peoples.
This is it in a nutshell. It's like when I'm at work talking to my colleagues, and if conversation about Japan comes up. And I express my feelings (my uncle died fighting the Japanese. My mum, another uncle and my aunty have suffered under Japanese occupation in Hong Kong as a child).
They instantly latch on to me as being unreasonable because I should let bygones be bygones. And any case, the atrocities committed was by someone no longer alive now and it's not this generations fault.
They completely missed the point. The point is we can all put it behind us if the Japanese acknowledged their responsibilities and apologise properly just like the Germans did.
Alas no. This is because, Unlike the Germans majority of the perpetrators survived, and not only survived they hold important places in government. All with US blessing. These people refused to acknowledge their responsibilities, because like our friend here, they genuinely believed they have done nothing wrong.
Because they think they have done nothing wrong, they so want to honour their "war heros" like a "normal" nation as per Abe and other leaders wishes, they secretly moved class A war criminals (executed by us) back into Yakasuni shrine.
This one move alone speaks volumn, they are basically telling the allies that they got it all wrong! These are not war criminals, let alone class A. And we are going to honour them.
My best man (best friend) at my wedding who knows me well from when we pre-teens went yo Japan for the world cup. And had told me he visited the Yakasuni shrine. I was livid with him. But he couldn't understand why until I told him about war criminals. These are the equivalent to Rudolf Hess of Germany where we locked up in Spandou prison for being class A war criminals.
He later apologise as he wasn't aware there were class A war criminals in Yakasuni shrine.
But we shouldn't need to explains ourselves all the time, because we are in the right. But all the time, like our friend here make excuses for Japan's role. The more we find ourselves explaining ourselves. Even though we are in the right. The world has gone bloody mad!
Not exactly, former Nazi high ranks got very soft handle by US, worked for CIA and NASA some of them awarded with medals lol . Also in West Germany some Nazis managed(?) to get positions like Ministers and top ranks, like a general for example, in army. Except of Willy Brandt was also a country named GDR who had closer ties to eastern Europe and Russia and paid reperations of the damages of Nazis in the name of Germany as a whole.
Anyway, Hijiki , Late Imperial Japan is marked with blood in the black book of history. Nothing to forgive or explain of a fascist force
My mum, who's in her 80's always tell us since we were young. That the Japanese were cruel and kind. Her dad (my grandfather) was accused by the Japanese to be in the resistance and they tortured him in front of the whole village. My mother still have vivid recollections of his torture. They basically filled him full of water and would jump on his stomach and all the water would be vomit back out. They did this repeatedly for almost an hour. My mother (about 5-6 yrs old) could never forget the laughter of the Japanese whilst they were torturing her father.
My grandfather never recovered from that ordeal and he died before the war ended.
But my mother also remembered, this happen just when the war ended, she got separated from her mother in a busy wet market. She was screaming her eyes out crying for her mum and a Japanese soldier came and console her and even bought her a bum for her to eat. He stayed with her until she was reunited with my grandmother.
It just show how people can be so cruel and yet also be kind.
My grandfather never recovered from that ordeal and he died before the war ended.
But my mother also remembered, this happen just when the war ended, she got separated from her mother in a busy wet market. She was screaming her eyes out crying for her mum and a Japanese soldier came and console her and even bought her a bum for her to eat. He stayed with her until she was reunited with my grandmother.
It just show how people can be so cruel and yet also be kind.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
That is because they didn't taught the proper history in school. Yes they mention about Nanjing massacre but briefly I doubt they have discussion about the subject. I went to german speaking highschool and we have thorough discussion on the German atrocities. Plenty of literature or play about the evil of German occupation and atrocities.
They have common history book between German and French written by author from both countries
The japanese commercial media specially private TV station are bad they didn't show the proper history of WW II instead they tend to mock and denigrate China or Chinese.
They are book about atrocities but it does not have wide appeal and only restricted to Academia
That is why I said they white wash the history.
There is effort to have common history text book written by author from China, Korea and Japan but they don't have wide following since the school district decide the textbook use in School.
But these days there are plenty of Japanese students study and latter work in China and they know the real history.
Anyway I finish watching the docu about OC volunteer and I am moved by their service,sense of duty and patriotism At the end of the series it feature all those men now become old men ONe of them come back to Malaysia and found out all of his relative except his sister killed by Japanese because of his involvement . But none of them express regret and they all said they do it again. Here is the episode
I am specially moved by the story of Kho Haisheng His picture below he is from Serawak barely 19 years old when he volunteer , Eating bad food and lack of sleep he drive nonstop to deliver munition from Lashio to the battle front. sleeping in the truck and get bombed by the Japanese. At the end of the war he decide to stay in China His unit was transferred to North China where he met a girl Hu wemin and fall in love They planned to settle down and buy farm in Andong But unfortunely civil war broke his unit was trapped by the communist and he attemp to flee but got shot in the hand. Next thing he know he wake in hospital and his girl travel all night to see him and nurse after him for 6 months.
But now that he is invalid He wonder if he can't make in China and become burden to his girls He decide to go back to Serawak without telling her and start a new life. He married Iban girl and have 8 children become a succesfull grower But he felt guilty and remorse So he trace and try to find his girlfriend for 6 years Eventually he found her but become widow with 2 children . They resume the tie and correspondence for 20 years On her last letter she send him her picture and said "you should not feel guilty now that I am old I can undertstand what you did no regret and no remorse and we should cherish the friendship and keep healthy. ONe year latter she died
Tribute to the Nanyang volunteers
The Memorial to the Nanyang Volunteer Mechanics and Drivers was unveiled by the then three surviving Sarawak Volunteer Mechanics on August 20, 2016. — Photos by Lim Yu Seng
THIS year 2019 marks the 80th anniversary of the epic event of the Nanyang Volunteer Drivers and Mechanics who served in the Resistance War in China in 1939.
Last year (2018) the UNESCO’s Memory of the World Register — Asia and Pacific Regions — had endorsed the contributions of this special group of people during World War Two. Who are the Nanyang Volunteer Drivers and Mechanics?
The term Nanyang, literally translated as Southern Ocean, refers to Southeast Asia today.
Before the Second World War, the region, with the exception of Thailand (formerly Siam), was controlled by western colonial powers.
The Memorial Monument to the Nanyang Jigong at Wanding, Yunnan. — Photo supplied by Tang Xiaomei
Indonesia was ruled by the Dutch and known as Dutch East Indies. The British controlled Burma, Malaya, Singapore, Sarawak, Sabah and Brunei.Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam were ruled by the French as Indo-China and the Phillipines was an American colony.
As hard-working migrants, many Chinese arrived in Nanyang over the years and during the colonial period. These millions of far-flung individuals all considered China as their homeland and cultural base.
Generally, the term Nanyang Chinese is always considered as a reference to members of a disparate group in relation to each other, as well as in relation to mainland China.
Nanyang gave the overseas Chinese a collective regional identity, providing the basis for the founding of the Federation of Nanyang China Relief Fund Committees in 1938. When drivers and mechanics from Nanyang volunteered to serve in China during the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945), they were known as Nanyang Volunteer Mechanics or NanqiaoJigong.
From 1928 to 1937, Japan initiated a series of “incidents” as a pretext for military action in Northern and Northeastern China. On July 7, 1937 the Japanese claimed one of their soldiers was missing and demanded to search Wanping (a Ming Dynasty Fortress in Beijing) for him. The Chinese refused, thus creating a pretext for the Japanese to initiate the invasion of Beijing.
July 7 Incident
This event became known as the July 7 Incident or the Marco Polo Bridge Incident, which marked the beginning of a full-scale war between China and Japan. The Japanese had estimated they could win the war in three months but it lasted for eight years, until Japan officially surrendered on Sept 9, 1945.
The Memorial Monument dedicated to the Nanyang Volunteer Mechanics and Drivers at Xishan Forest Reserve of Kunming, Yunnan. (Photo by Lim Yu Seng 2013).
About a month after the July 7 Incident, the Chinese Chamber of Commerce in Singapore published a notice in the Chinese press, calling for a conference to be convened on August 15, 1937.
At this meeting the Malaya/Singapore Overseas Chinese Relief Fund Committee was formed and Mr Tan Kah Kee (Chen Jiageng) was elected chairman. Simultaneously, the overseas Chinese in other Southeast Asian countries set up their China Relief Fund Committees as well.
About 180 representatives from the Philippines, French Indochina, Thailand, Indonesia, Hongkong, Malaya, Sarawak, Sabah, and Burma attended the Overseas Chinese Conference on Oct 10, 1938 at the Nanyang Secondary School in Singapore. Together, they represented more than eight million ethnic Chinese living in the American, French, Dutch, British colonies in Nanyang and Thailand.
By the end of the meeting, the Nanyang Federation of the China Relief Fund was formed as the regional coordinating body. Mr Tan Kah Kee was elected chairman, and the regional headquarters was located in the Ee Hoe Hean Club in Singapore.
The representatives from Sarawak were Wee Kheng Chiang, Hwang Yew Khiam and Tu Nai Bing from Kuching; Zhuan You Cheng and Yang Yi Ying from Miri; Chen Zhong Chi and Lau Kah Too from Sibu.
Through various fund-raising initiatives to support the war, the China Relief Fund facilitated the transfer of significant financial resources to the Chinese Nationalist government. The funds played a crucial role in supporting China in every aspect of the war and were used to purchase medication, medical equipment, clothing, food, and military hardware such as planes, tanks, trucks, explosives, weapons and other military material.
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@Hendrik_2000
In our Chinese association, we've about half of the chinese coming from nanyang countries, mainly Malaysian. Malaysians can speak about four Chinese language, Mandarin, Cantonese, Fokkinese and Hakka. And now English. It's amazing and there are the hardest working people I know. Also very patriotic to be Chinese even though they maybe third of forth generations Chinese.
In our Chinese association, we've about half of the chinese coming from nanyang countries, mainly Malaysian. Malaysians can speak about four Chinese language, Mandarin, Cantonese, Fokkinese and Hakka. And now English. It's amazing and there are the hardest working people I know. Also very patriotic to be Chinese even though they maybe third of forth generations Chinese.