New J-10 thread II

Plus, how would the construction of another Rafale class fighter be an appropriate answer to the F-22?

The PLA already has fighters that can match up with F-15s, F/A-18s and F-16s. To match against advanced versions of those planes, it would be a lot more economical to just make modifications on the J10s and J11s than to finance a new fighter project.

A proper response to the F-22 threat would be an indigenous stealth fighter or another offensive weapon system that is just as useful in penetrating enemy defenses.

They're not going to develop something that's basically the same as what they've got. But there are good arguments for producing some intermediate planes rather than waiting until you can produce something comparable to the F-22.

You can imagine (for example) something that's mostly comparable to the J11 or J-10 in performance, but featuring as much RCS reduction as the designers are able to pull-off given their current level of technology.

Doing intermediate designs might be a little more expensive, but it's less risky, and would allow them to gain experience (and thus progress) more quickly.

Also keep in mind the steadily increasing budget. The R&D teams that worked on the J11, J-10, and JF-17 are probably bigger than they were a few years ago, and working hard on something.

... Ami.

Yes, I agree with most of the above comments. In fact, my opinion is, in theory, China should conentrate on improving J11+J10 for the 3rd gen fighers and one true 4th gen heavy weight class fighter that can hold its ground against F22 (I don't expect it to match F22 in all areas).

And, my observation is, PLAAF had been doing that exactly. JH7? No, FC1? No. They only wanted Flankers and lately J10s. And SAC's 4th gen fighter has been their favorite for a long time.

But the ground reality is not perfect. CAC (and other institutes) needs projects to survive. With J10's sucess, they have established their position firmly ( especially in normal mil fan circles). They will do whatever they can to get into the 4th gen fighter market. That's why we are hearing all sorts of news or rumors from ChengDu.

These are all real efforts, but they are just their own efforts. In the next 1-3 years when the dust settle down, we will know the outcome. 611/CAC may end up empty handed or they may get a contract from PLAN, or even a contract from PLAAF. It's a very interesting time.

BTW, this medium class fighter thing is a long story. It's exactly because chinese realised that a fighter like Eurocanards is not an answer to F22 so they gave it up in the 90s. But now with PLAN's carrier projects on the way, there's a unique chance for CAC to explore. Plus the government and the parent holding company are encouraging 611/CAC to compete. How far can they go? I don't know.

mehdi said:

These days you have to be a strong person not to start going loko look at what we have now a so called twin engined J-10 with medium trust engines which will resemble the French Rafale ??? and also a heavily redesigned J-10 with a TVC engine which might be completely different than the original one , who know what it will look like. I feel personally that this is just too much speculation it would be better if we refrained from adding more comments until we can have some substantial proof what are the new developments for the J-10.

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I get what you say. But when it comes to observations of the secretive PLA, a lot will inevitably be speculative. If we only comment on stuffs with substantial proof, forums like this one will be very very quiet.

Any idea if this latest report below is talking about the same J-10 redesign project or a different one ?
I'm quite clueless in deciphering all these reports from Chinese sources. It basically just said it's an important aircraft project.
I wonder why they even bother to report anything if only so little detail is given.




国产重点型号飞机结构设计图即将完成(图)

“3月底完成长线数控件设计发图！”,“4月底完成所有结构设计发图！”

　　这是1月下旬确立的重点型号发图目标，是重点型号任务今年的一个重大节点。时间紧迫、形势逼人！当被问及能否按时完成发图任务时，设计员们异口同声地回答：“我们有信心！”

信心，在困难面前坚定

　　重点型号发图的困难主要在四个方面：技术难度大、协调量大、时间紧工作量大及多型号多任务并行。

　　重点型号外形布局变化大，但又要保证主要结构交点和设备接口不变，保证其他专业的延续性，尽量将全机的改动保持到最小。这无疑增加了难度。.................

Translation...
Domestic focus on models of aircraft structural design is nearing completion (Picture)

"By the end of March to complete a few long-term control plan designed hair! "" At the end of April to complete all the structural design of the map! "

This was established in the latter part of the plan's key objectives is the key tasks of this type of a major node. Time is running short, the situation is pressing. When asked whether the timely completion of the map task, designers were unanimous answer : "We are confident that! "

Confidence in the firm in the face of difficulties

Chart key models made major difficulties in four areas : technical difficulties, coordination capacity, Time was tight workload and multiple concurrent multi-task model.........

From the recent news, we can see clearly that J-10, or WS-10a are just transitional goals for PLAAF. The new airplanes are coming from the drawing board(there are other speculations as well), same improvement probably from the engine as well.

I have some doubt that the current configuration of J-10 or WS-10a will go to mass production. The engine, WS-10a needs at least 3-5 years to get mutured for that. The Chinese real goal at least should be the improved version of WS-10a that powers the J-10 Mod version airplane with some kind of stealth feature.

It's quite prudent for them just do small batch production, to solve all the problem encounted for the brand new versions of engine and airplane, not unexpectedly. In 1970s, when China rushed to mass produce the new turbo engines, the problem of broken blade merged from that and forced to ground the whole airplane fleet. They couldn't solve the problem in the short time and the case went up finally to Chinese prime minister, Zhou Enlai. They definitely learned something from that.

For a start I will accept with fishhead's comments. I always wanted to know why China never co-produced the Al-31F engine, perhaps cause they were developing the WS-10A engine that they would incorporate into the indigenous version of the Su-27SK that is the J-11B. Anyway about the J-10 first they will have to test the aircraft fully before running to make new modifications. Jumping to conclusions is pretty easy but one lesson I learned from the Chinese is that they never ever show what they really GOT and that's their true force. We can debate as much as we want but what we see is only the tip of the Iceberg.

We can do a parallel comparing:

The WS-9 turbofan engine, aka Spey Mk 202, passed the design certification(domestic improved version) in 2003, but got its production certification only this month(2007).

For WS-10a, the design certification was done in Dec, 2005, it's reasonable to assume the production certification takes 3-5 years. After that, the improved version will get mutured much quicker.

mehdi said:

For a start I will accept with fishhead's comments. I always wanted to know why China never co-produced the Al-31F engine, perhaps cause they were developing the WS-10A engine that they would incorporate into the indigenous version of the Su-27SK that is the J-11B. .

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THe Russian did not allow co-produced of AL-31F engines... Chinese has to do it ,it own way.

By the way, have a question. For every J-11B produced. Does China need to pay a loyalty fee to Russian since they are using their own design. If Russian refused to allow China to produced more J-11B or deliberate charge very high fee for a single copy. Will PRC obliged(Stop the production)?

mehdi said:

I always wanted to know why China never co-produced the Al-31F engine, perhaps cause they were developing the WS-10A engine that they would incorporate into the indigenous version of the Su-27SK that is the J-11B.

Click to expand...

They charged too much. They've transfered the Su-27 technology and if they lose the grab on engine, they won't have any money to make in the future(they hope).

Actually Chinese is making the core parts of Al-31F today(blade, etc), the overhaul of the engine is no longer needed to be sent to Russia.