WW II Historical Thread, Discussion, Pics, Videos

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
US forces are welcomed in Japan. Sometimes they forget how overbearing they can be. But at the same time, they truely to express their appreciation for having good host. US and Japan security interests are more aligned than not. The PRC side believes it is still "Japan occupation" but it is not. So long as the PRC maintains the 9 dash line claim in the South China Sea, the claim on Taiwan, and the claim on the Senkaku islands, US forces will be welcomed in the region.
Sure. "Welcomed" is a nice way to put it.
But is there a choice?
The past 70 years suggests that there was no choice for Japan and Japan hasn't said "no" in any case.
If your host is too accommodating and never dares to confront you, even if in some cases its overbearing, then most probably the host is being blackmailed.

To be a truly independent sovereign state means to
always put one's own interest above others. Japan doesn't show that. Neither do South Korea.

Maybe it's a matter of priorities. I'm just wondering how long the guest-host relationship last, that's all.
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
The first bold underscore in your post is nothing but just a conjecture.





As for the second bold underscore..

There are 6 major High School history book publishers but mostly seem to portray generally the same material. I own a couple of books by one of the major publishers called Yamakawa Publisher. Here they are.
dde4.jpg


Both are for High School. The one on the left is mostly text. The one on the right has lots of visual charts, graphs, and images with briefer descriptions. The left one with the text I picked up today. The one on the right I had for 6 or so months, just for the purpose of familiarizing myself with general Japanese history (which I never find the time to settle down and get to doing..)

Generally scanning through the book over the general date period when the main atrocities committed by the Japanese occurred, there's a description for the Nanking massacre which goes as follows:
dde2.jpg


dde3.jpg


It needs to be noted that the style of the book is that historical terms are left blank but listed at the bottom of the page. The terms are numbered. It gives the student the opportunity to write in the terms as they read along. It says the following:

 1937年8月には上海でも戦闘が始まり(第2次上海事変)、戦火は南に広がった。
9月には国民党と共産党がふたたび提携して(第二次国共合作)、抗日
民族統一戦線を成立させた。日本はつぎつぎと大軍を投入し、
年末には国民政府の首都南京を占領した。南京陥落の前後、日本

軍は市内外で略奪・暴行を繰り返したうえ、多数の中国人一般住民(婦女子を含
む)および捕虜を殺害した(南京事件という)。国民政府は南京か
ら漢口、さらに奥地の重慶に退いてあくまで抗戦を続けたので、日中戦
争は泥沼のような長期戦となった。

With the fighting starting in Shanghai (2nd Shanghai incident) in August 1937, the fires of war spread south. The Nationalists party and Communists party once again entered into cooperation (2nd United Front), forming a united national front of resistance against Japan. Japan continued to send in a larger army and by the end of the year, had occupied the Nationalists government's capital of Nanking. Before and after the fall of Nankin, the Japanese army carried out repeatedly pillage and rape inside and outside of the city, in addition to a great number of regular Chinese people (including women and children) and prisoners being murdered. The Nationalists retreated from Nankin to Hankou and then further into the interior to Chongqing and continued the resistance, thus Sino-Japanese war bogged down into a long lasting war.




In the book on the right side with all the images and graphs, it has one page with descriptions for Unit 731, the Bataan Death March, the construction of the Burma railway, and the massacre of Chinese at Singapore shortly after the occupation of Singapore.
dde1.jpg


With that, I will add there was a study by a Stanford faculty comparing the textbooks of Japan with those of the US, South Korea, Taiwan, and China:

Some common assumptions about history textbooks used in Japan turn out to be ill-founded. Far from inculcating patriotism, as many overseas observers assume, Japanese high school textbooks tend to dryly present a chronology of historical facts, with little interpretive narrative added. This is the finding of the Divided Memories and Reconciliation project by the author and his colleague Professor Gi-Wook Shin, involving an in-depth comparison of history textbooks used in China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and the United States.
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Well, most of the post here are based on....... conjecture! As NON of us armchair warriors, you and I included, will ever have full unbridal information to everything!

However my opinons that two thirds of those Japanese surveyed thinks the atomic bombs is inhumane is a fact, as bored out according to your survey.

What is conjecture is my believe that I doubt anyone thinks inhumane treatment is justice as opposed to injustice. But it's down to you to disagree as opposed to say it's conjecture! I doubt very much you can/will disagree!

As for the rest of your post stating books you have obtained in Japan showing recognition of the atrocities committed by Japanese troops as proof that historical education is alive and well and correctly taught in Japanese schools and colleges. Well that is also conjecture.

I've seen and heard from Japanese friends during my wife's time working for canon Ltd. That Japanese schools and colleges historical curriculums are a lot less details than those in your books. And that's not conjecture! It is a fact!

So how to we reconcile the differences?Well allow me to explain.

You said you went to school and colleges in Japan. And you said you didn't pay any notice at history lessons (So presumably you have forgotten what was taught) but yet after you have left school and colleges, you came across these books, books that is more or less inline with the rest of the world's view on Japanese atrocities.

Have you ever considered that the atrocities was never taught at schools and colleges while you were asleep in class?

In the UK, when I was a student, history lessons NEVER mentioned how UK sold opium to the Chinese, but it does means books were not available in the library if students were curious enough to want to know.

So you can see the difference. They are taught but information is available to people wanting to know. I put it to you this is wants happening in Japan. But of course, you can't confirm that because you were asleep at the time. So you only hot my words and words of my Japanese friends that WW2 history are only taught at a minimum level, without going into greater details.

But it is not just about history lessons. It is about behaviours as a nation. And since according to your books, the Japanese did commit these atrocities, why the hell do successive Japanese government denies any atrocities having taking place? Don't these people read the books you had?
 

zgx09t

Junior Member
Registered Member
For about 40,000 killed in Pacific theater, US got to drop about 35 kilotons in total. A good estimate of Chinese killed at IJA hands stood at 10 millions. That's an equivalent of 8.75 megatons, all inclusive of fares, meals, room charges, free drinks and applicable taxes. They can write all the shit they want in their text books, as long as that 8.75 megatons stay on the book. Another 100 years to wait is no problem, until US of A is no more.
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
Sure. "Welcomed" is a nice way to put it.
But is there a choice?
The past 70 years suggests that there was no choice for Japan and Japan hasn't said "no" in any case.
If your host is too accommodating and never dares to confront you, even if in some cases its overbearing, then most probably the host is being blackmailed.

To be a truly independent sovereign state means to
always put one's own interest above others. Japan doesn't show that. Neither do South Korea.

Maybe it's a matter of priorities. I'm just wondering how long the guest-host relationship last, that's all.

There's no two ways about it, no matter how much people put the gloss on it, how much mind gymnastics they perform, they just can't get away from the fact that NO nation in the world likes to have foreign troops on their soil! Period.

The only reason a nation would want foreign troops on their soil is that they are unable to protect and defend their own citizens. With the exception of nations that is too small, any government that failed in the number one duty of any government, don't deserve to exist.

We all know why foreign troops is in Japan, Korea, Germany etc. And before anyone claiming it's an alliance. Blah blah. Well why don't troops permanently station at certain country because of this alliance?
 

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
There's no two ways about it, no matter how much people put the gloss on it, how much mind gymnastics they perform, they just can't get away from the fact that NO nation in the world likes to have foreign troops on their soil! Period.

The only reason a nation would want foreign troops on their soil is that they are unable to protect and defend their own citizens. With the exception of nations that is too small, any government that failed in the number one duty of any government, don't deserve to exist.

We all know why foreign troops is in Japan, Korea, Germany etc. And before anyone claiming it's an alliance. Blah blah. Well why don't troops permanently station at certain country because of this alliance?
Yes. They are occupied nations. That's the truth. However, I was wondering how a "de-occupation" looks like and when exactly it's going to happen.

I have some idea -
In the future, Japan is going to see low growth and economic crisis (after the wealth accumulated during its peak era depletes). By that time, US would have become a "majority-minority" state and there would be pressure to open up Japan to foreign labor pool (already happening).
The people from US is going to be granted citizenship in Japan (a multicultural multiracial pool) and this will cause problems with Japanese populace. Anti-establishment sentiments will rise. Japan asks US to vacate citing that a century of occupation is enough.

But external factors like China and North Korea remain.
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
Yes. They are occupied nations. That's the truth. However, I was wondering how a "de-occupation" looks like and when exactly it's going to happen.

I have some idea -
In the future, Japan is going to see low growth and economic crisis (after the wealth accumulated during its peak era depletes). By that time, US would have become a "majority-minority" state and there would be pressure to open up Japan to foreign labor pool (already happening).
The people from US is going to be granted citizenship in Japan (a multicultural multiracial pool) and this will cause problems with Japanese populace. Anti-establishment sentiments will rise. Japan asks US to vacate citing that a century of occupation is enough.

But external factors like China and North Korea remain.

The best scenario for Japan is US economic collapse, and have to withdraw on it own accord. (Currently Japan is paying US $$$$ for their troops to station there! It's like gangsters' protection money!)

Because the US military activities is paid for by Japan and Korea, there's no incentives for US to withdrawal. The vassal states won't dare ask. The master state won't leave because it's already paid for. And the vassal states are buying weapons they produced at a price they dictate. There is only one winner in this sorry saga for Japan and Korea.
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
800 heros!

Great video of the heroic defence by Chinese troops in Shanghai. Although the video was mainly filmed by the Japanese. It does showed the staunch defence, and the difficulties the Japanese encountered. The determined defenders, dispite being outgunned, and outnumbered put up a strong fight, thus allowing other troops to escape the clutches of imperial Japan. The battle was apparent to all other nations to see at the time as there are lots of foreign concessions in the city. However no help was given except for some diplomatic condemnation.

This defence inspire the troops with good moral and with songs were sung about this defence for the next eight years of struggle against Japanese.

Very proud of the defenders. Least we forget!

 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Not many people know about Nanyang burma road volunteer.Here is a bit background in 1937 Japanese navy blockade Chinese eastern coast No oil, No munition and No food can be imported into China as a response the Nationalist government build burma road from lashio to Kunming. It was build using 200,000 laborer mostly Miao, Han and Burmese
The road is finished within one year and provide a lifeline to war resistance effort . It is dangerous road full of twist and turn as well unpaved. But once the road is finished they found out China at that time has not enough driver or car mechanic, So the nationalist ask for help from overseas Chinese mostly in Malaya, Singapore,Indonesia, Burma. Tan Kah Kee and his China relief fund organized overseas chinese volunteer driver and mechanic. 5000 young people answer the call but only 3200 are selected Out of 120,000 Ton munition They driver volunteer transport half of it. Out of 3200 one third die in their duty, one third stay in China at the end of war. Only one third return back to their home land. But in 1942 Japan occupied Yunnan and the burma road cease to exist Many of the men get stranded they didn't have money and some of them were forced to beg on the street. Tan Kah Kee get disillusion with the Nationalist government and he feel guilty since he is the organizer. So he organized an rescue mission and transported the men back to eastern sea coast and from there back to Malay
1599099099476.png

Yunnan tv pay tribute to the volunteer

Little did they know that Japan also occupied Singapore and they took revenge on the organizer of the relief fund and executed many who has anything to do with relief fund for China Out of 1.8 billion Nationalist budget about one third is from overseas Chinese

Nanyang Transport Volunteers( 南洋华侨机工) 1937-1945
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The history of Nanyang Volunteers or Nanqiao ji gong(南侨机工)was not a familiar history with most of us; but it is part of WW2 history, part of Chinese history, and now historical part of Malaysian Chinese, as well as South East Asian Chinese. Many have forgotten the history, many of young generation have never heard the story, and it is not in our school history textbooks.

Initially I was confused what is the correct name for the Nanyang Volunteers, should it be Nanyang Drivers(南洋司机) or Nanyang mechanics(南侨技工). The report from Dara Singh was talking about mechanics(修理工); some articles are talking about the heavy vehicle drivers(司机). Actually the volunteers included both vehicle drivers and mechanics. Broadly it was volunteer transport workers. Today, the correct name should be Nanyang Volunteers(南侨志愿者), but historically it was Nanyang Oversea Chinese Transport Volunteers(南侨机工), but to be fair to non-Chinese, it was also called Nanyang Transport Volunteers(南洋机工).

In 1939, 3,200 young men from South-East Asia(called Nanyang(南洋) by Chinese), most were from Malaya, left their families and homes voluntarily to travel to China to work as drivers and mechanics during the Sino-Japanese War of 1937-1945. They left in 15 batches with 9 of 15 batches leaving from Singapore. The volunteers are called Nangiao ji gong(南侨机工)or “overseas Chinese mechanics”.

These 3200 volunteers included Indian, Malay men and four Chinese women. They were responding to China Relief Fund’s call to sustain China’s war materials supply chain during the Sino Japanese War. The China Relief Fund or Nanyang Federation of China Relief Fund(南洋华侨筹赈祖国难民总会), was founded by founded in 1938 by 170 overseas Chinese representatives from the Nanyang region. Their objective was to coordinate regional relief work to support China against Japanese advancement. Mr.Tan Kah Kee was elected as the chairman. The regional headquarter of China Relief Fund was located in Ee Hoe Hean Club, Singapore.

They were known as Nanqiao ji gong or “overseas Chinese mechanics”. But historical records revealed that there were actually Indians and Malays among these volunteers.

These volunteers’ task took them along the Burma Road, a more than 1,453km-long route that began at the rail head town of Lashio in north-east Burma (or Myanmar) and wound its way across mountainous terrain through the province of Yunnan in the south-west corner of China to end at the provincial capital, Kunming.

The Burma Road(滇缅公路)

By the middle of 1938, the Yunnan-Burma Road, laid along segments of that ancient trail, was completed and ready for heavy use. (The Yunnan-Burma Highway and Yunnan Economy During the Periods of Anti-Japanese War by Li Cheng, Journal of Asian Culture and History, Canadian Center of Science and Education, ccsenet.org.)The Burma Road(滇缅公路) is a road linking Burma (also called Myanmar) with the southwest of China. Its terminals are Kunming, Yunnan(中国云南省昆明市), and Lashio, Burma(缅甸腊戌). When it was built, Burma was still a British colony.


When the Japanese began blockading China’s seaboard in 1937 to cut off access to overseas war materials, the Chinese Government turned to this inland route that crossed its border to maintain a tenuous link with the outside world.

The Chinese government officials began the process of shipping military supplies from Irrawaddy River ports to Lashio for transportation into China via the road, they realised there were not enough skilled drivers and mechanics in China to service this overland route.

Malaya and Singapore had an estimated 50,000 to 60,000 skilled workers, according to research done for a documentary film made by a Chinese TV station and museum about the Nanqiao ji gong.

So in February 1939, a recruitment drive began in Singapore that called for drivers and mechanics aged between 20 to 40 years old to come to China’s aid. The drive was held under the aegis of the China Relief Fund that had initially been formed to raise funds from overseas Chinese to aid China during the Sino-Japanese War.

The response to the call was astonishing: within a matter of months more than 3,000 men – and not all of them Chinese either – from this part of the world volunteered, eventually joining tens of thousands of mainland Chinese in plying the 1,453km Yunnan-Burma Road(滇缅公路), China’s only link with the outside world after 1941.

According to the researchers, upon arriving in Kunming, the Nanqiao ji gong were sorted into Overseas Transportation Teams and given additional training.

It was these men’s job to ferry fuel, weapons, ammunition and soldiers to various parts of China. In return, the Chinese Government provided food, accommodation and medical support and a monthly salary of between 69 and 74 yuan, which was quite low compared to wages for such jobs in Malaya and Singapore at that time.

The route traveled over two mountain ranges, crossing three rivers and countless gorges over more than 400 bridges; it ran along the edges of cliffs and slopes and there were long stretches with sharp and precarious bends, as the road rose from about 600m to over 2,000m above sea level along its length. And then there were mosquito-infested jungles where deadly malaria was rampant.

Burma Road drivers ferried SOE and Force 136 operatives on their missions. Tan said: “We had a saying that if a truck flipped over on the highway on the first day of the month, it would reach the bottom only on the 15th. It was a very dangerous road. It was not paved and not wide enough for two vehicles to pass each other. The drivers needed to have very good skills.

The reality was that by the time the war ended in 1945, about one-third of these volunteers had given their lives in the line of duty; some remained in China to find a living and got married and settled there. Only about 1,200 eventually returned to South-East Asia

According to Yunnan Province archives, records of the second brigade of Overseas Transportation Teams dated June 30, 1941, showed there were 97 non-Chinese mechanics – among them 55 Indians, 18 Malays, 11 Burmese and two Indonesians.

Half of them died during service and the remaining ones either settled in China or return to Nanyang after the war.


走遍中国-再会吧,南洋--南洋华侨机工 Part 1 of 3


走遍中国-再会吧,南洋--南洋华侨机工 Part 2 of 3


走遍中国-再会吧,南洋--南洋华侨机工 Part 3 of 3


One of the non-Chinese volunteer, Dara Singh wrote on his experience as Malayan Mechanic Volunteer in the Strait Times, dated 26-7-1939.

MALAYAN VOLUNTEERS IN CHINA Taiping Man On Dangers And Thrills Of Supply Routes (Taiping, July 24, 1939). THRILLS and danger that go hand-in-hand in the daily life of Malayan mechanics who are now doing service in war torn China are described in a letter from Dara Singh(The Straits Times, 26 July 1939, Page 16)

In 1946, after the end of the world war 2, the local Chinese in Penang built a monument in memory of civilians and Nanyang Transport Volunteers who lost their lives during WW2, it is commonly known as Penang Chinese Anti-War Memorial. The actual full name of the memorial is Penang Chinese War Memorial for the Nanyang Transport Volunteers and the victims of the world war(槟榔屿华侨抗战殉职机工罹难同胞纪念碑). The monument is located at the foot of Penang Hill, Penang, Malaysia(槟城升旗山). It was reported that there is another at Kuala Lumpur Kwang Tung Cemetery(吉隆坡的广东义山亭).
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
(cont)
On 7 July 1989, the Yunan government constructed a monument,"赤子功勋", in memory of Nanyang Transport Volunteers at Kunming, the capital of Yunan Province.(昆明市的西山森林公园建有“南洋华侨机工抗日纪念碑).

There is another memorial monument at Wanding(畹町), Ruili(瑞丽市),opened on 12-12-2005.(云南瑞丽市畹町经济开发区南洋华侨机工抗战纪念碑).Ruili is a border town with Burma, Wanding Border Economic Cooperation Zone (WTBECZ) is a Chinese State Council-approved Industrial Park based in Wanding Town, Ruili City, Dehong Prefecture, Yunnan, China, founded in 1992. Wanding Bridge(畹町桥)is the bridge at the border between Burma and China, where the Nanyang Transport Volunteers crew had pass through.

The Journey to Burma Road in remembrance of the Nanyang Volunteers

Initiated by the KL & Selangor Chinese Assembly Hall and organized by Malayan Second World War History Society(滇缅公路马来亚二战历史研究会), and Persatuan Hope Negeri Johor, (柔佛河婆同乡会青年团), a group of history enthusiasts commemorated Nanyang Volunteers with a journey from Singapore to Kunming.

Their starting point was the Ee Hoe Hean Club,(怡和轩)in Singapore Chinatown,since Ee Hoe Hean was the headquarters of China Relief Fund and the send-off location for many batches of Nanyang Volunteers.

Nanyang Federation of China Relief Fund(南洋华侨筹赈祖国难民总会) was formed in 1938, when 170 overseas Chinese representatives from the region met to establish a regional body to co ordinate regional relief work to support China against Japanese advancement. These delegates founded the Nanyang Federation of China Relief Fund(南洋华侨筹赈祖国难民总会)and elected Mr. Tan Kah Kee(陈嘉庚)as the chairman. The regional headquarter of China Relief Fund was located in Ee Hoe Hean Club, Singapore.

Suggested readings/websites:

1. MALAYAN VOLUNTEERS IN CHINA , The Straits Times, 26 July 1939, Page 16( This was the report of one of the non Chinese volunteer, Dara Singh from Taiping)
2. Flying Tigers,
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3. Heroic contributions of the Nanqiao ji gong; The Star, dated August 8, 2010;
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