To those who serve/served in the armed forces: WHAT DO YOU ENVY ABOUT THE PLA?

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
I assume techno1911 is refering to the Korean War in his US Vs PRC casulities figures. From my simple research the actual number of North Korean and PRC casulities is unknown.

I found this paragraph to be very intresting;

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Losses among North Korean and Chinese military forces were also astronomical. The use of "human wave" attacks contributed to high combat losses. In such attacks hundreds and even thousands of soldiers, sometimes armed only with grenades or even unarmed (the assumption being that they would pick up weapons dropped by soldiers killed in preceding waves) were sacrificed in often completely useless frontal assaults. Primitive logistic and medical support meant a very low survival rate for wounded soldiers; by 1952, for Chinese and North Korean troops a wound amounted to a death sentence. Many more simply froze to death. It is estimated that anywhere from 500,000 to 1,500,000 Chinese and North Korean soldiers died in the war.

Personally I hope the US and PLA forces never meet on the field of battle. War is an horrfic business. The US and PRC have many, many bussiness dealings nowadays to even complentate war. US banks an the US government owe PRC banks almost $1 trillion USD.

War sucks.
 

eecsmaster

Junior Member
this topic has been debated to death. The PVA had much more tactical complexity than the West gave them credits for.
 

optionsss

Junior Member
I have to say, the Chinese "human wave" attack was much more complex then just throwing thousands of soldiers at their enemy. They were basically trying to saturated a small area with large number of troops, to crease a regional number adv. Since the Chinese was out gunned, they use it to push back the US force on the ground very effectivelly.

were sacrificed in often completely useless frontal assaults

Chinese would not achieve what they did if that was all to the "human wave". Just look at world war one, I am sure the US army's fire power was much better then the Germans at that time, but I never heard divisions of Chinese soldiers being killed in one day, never.

However I do think it was a bloody was for both side, just compare the KIAs. I think the Chinese really did a good job, but then again, the wounded and the soldiers froze to death is just...
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
this topic has been debated to death. The PVA had much more tactical complexity than the West gave them credits for.

It sure has. Instead of assuming "Western bias" read the link I posted above. Personally I think it is a very fair account of the Korean War. Read this excerpt.

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China enters the War

Again US intelligence was caught off-guard, believing that China would accept the defeat of North Korea and the resultant occupation of the North by American Armed Forces. The Chinese, remembering the Korean contribution to their own civil war, and unwilling to accept an armed American presence on their border, entered the war in overwhelming force in November 1950. The Peoples Liberation Army, which in spite of primitive logistics support and a shortage of weapons, proved highly effective at night fighting and guerilla warfare, and sent a huge number of troops into Korea. As in the early days of the North Korean invasion, American forces were again routed. In particular, elements of X Corps (the First Marine Division and elements of the US Army 7th Division) under the controversial command of U.S. Army General Edward Almond, having ill-advisedly extended their lines with little or no flank support, were attacked in tremendous force by fresh Chinese Armies. In the general confusion of the second retreat, American casualties were severe, and the famous battle for the Chosin Reservoir of November - December 1950, was one of the few bright spots.

And you know what? War sucks.
 

aquilis182

New Member
may i ask why china has a better military than it needs right now. Just want to understand that part:p
Cause China don't want to attack anybody for now (Including Taiwan... unless they declare their independence formally). But they are making sure that if some body attacks them they beat them... in the case of the U.S. give them a good fight ... at least

and where would the US army actually face the PLA? On Chinese soil? That most certainly is going to result in a US defeat if the conflict doesn't go nuclear. If you bring combined arms tactics into play then the scope of comparison changes considerably.

For now thats not gonna happen I hope not, but if it happen U.S. will have to use much more military power than they use scince the history in order to win. But If you really want to know whats gonna happen just read what I say to our friend "The_Zergling"

and where would the US army actually face the PLA? On Chinese soil? That most certainly is going to result in a US defeat if the conflict doesn't go nuclear. If you bring combined arms tactics into play then the scope of comparison changes considerably.

I respectufully suggest you to read what I say to our friend "The_Zergling"
Then chek my information source
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then let me know your opinion. And if you have other source than tell you otherwise I will apreciate you tell me so I can expand my military knoledge

It sure has. Instead of assuming "Western bias" read the link I posted above. Personally I think it is a very fair account of the Korean War. Read this excerpt.



And you know what? War sucks.
Yeah I read an article like that and chinese forces win a battle I respect that but they still lose the war. US Forces are just superior (not invensible or something like that) "Human waves" really works when you outnumber your enemy. U.S. Forces where overrun but later they com back and retake Seoul
And if you see today SK its free from NK and become a U.S. Military allied, US Forces are stationed today in SK about 37,000 soldiers you know that right? If China where defeat completley US that never happen
 
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kunmingren

Junior Member
here is how i see it, you mentioned the difference in amount military spending, and it does make a big difference in term of military capibility, but some field are more affected than others. When it comes to infantry, it doesnt make that much of a difference, because there are only so many things to put on a solider, a gun, helmet, nightvision, armor etc.The real difference that the money makes are in areas like airforce and navy. US has many times the nulcear forces, many times more aircraft carrier, not to mention the infamously expensive B-2 bomber. So you see that the PLA ground force and the US army has less gap between them.
 

The_Zergling

Junior Member
In case anyone's wondering, http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showpost.php?p=61013&postcount=78 is the post aquilis182 is referring to... I edited it for clarity here.

First of all my friend I'm talking about general terms. I'm aware that Chinese forces are improving their "capabilities" In general terms much faster than even the U.S. department of Defense expect but my point is regardless of that the U.S. Army until the sun of today have a better military. If your argument its than China have a nice military for their purpose... yes you're right...

In my opinion China have a much better military than they really need.
But if today China and US engage in a war U.S. will sustain heavy losses (military analyst from the Pentagon expect to win against North Korea but will cost the lives of 90,000 US soldiers) My point is that China it's stronger than NK so obviously will inflict more damage than NK but even if they inflict the triple (360,000 of US soldiers) U.S will crush China's forces cause in the process of killing thousands of soldiers they will lose their soldiers. Thats my analysis of whats happen if US and China fight a conventional warfare.

In the Sea... China it's modernizing their navy but U.S. Navy still better than the Chinese navy Chinese subs can cause few loses of US warships and maybe carriers but when they launch their ballistic missile they give away their position so a P-3 Orion will send the Chinese Subs to meet their maker in the bottom of the sea . In the Air... I know than China manage to create an outstanding jetfighter - the J-10 and buy some nice Prussian made fighters but if we face the reality most of the PLAAF are Chinese versions of MiG-19 farmers and MiG-21 Fishbed and the pilots train 140 to 150 hrs at year and lack of real combat experience (check it out at
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) The American pilots train over 300 hrs at year with updated equipment and mush of them have combat experience.

Not to mention the Chinese version for the Mig-19 and Mig-21 are no match for the f-15s (the backbone of the USAF) the J-10s and the Su-35s are better than the American F-15s but the F-22 Raptors will shoot them down cause far outperform any jet fighter in the planet and are "stealth". After that B-2 Spirits (invisible to radar and even to infrared sensors) cannot be locked by SAMs and can fly high enough to outrange the Chinese AAA systems will bomb the heck out of the Chinese forces without a single lost. In the land warfare thats the most difficult to U.S. cause Chinese army it's a way larger than the US land forces but before they engage in combat as I say before the USAF will greatly reduce the PLA forces.

The remaining forces will be disoriented and hunger cause the USAF bombardment make them lose their supplies. The US troops better trained and equiped and fresh to battle will annihilate the remaining PLA but unlike the USAF the SA Army and USMC will take some serious damage from the PLA but in the end they will prevail cause they will have kill or (not very likely to capture Chinese soldiers, they are very brave and they will fight to death. I admire the Chinese culture in that!) Chinese insurgency? That can be a good point thats the most hard part of that cause U.S. forces have to follow RoEs
But Chinese have honor and aren't terrorist and they are not coward to use human as shield like the Talibans and Iraqi isurgencies... Making that easier to US Forces to open fire and of course kill them.

Seems like you've been reading too much Tom Clancy, my friend. No one's denying that the US has superior equipment and training. But let's look at one of the examples you drew up: The F-15 is superior to the J-7s and J-8s. Fair enough. But should a war occur between the US and China, where would it be situated? Chances are, near Chinese territory. That's a very broad area obviously, but for argument's sake let's say Taiwan Strait.

Where is the USAF going to deploy its superior F-15s from? Okinawa? How will this affect their combat capabilities due to the limits of fuel? Fact of the matter is that China cannot threaten US soil conventionally, but if you turn it the other way around, China can put up quite a fight despite holding a technological disadvantage. That was the point I was trying to make, which you may have unfortunately overlooked.
 

aquilis182

New Member
In case anyone's wondering, http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showpost.php?p=61013&postcount=78 is the post aquilis182 is referring to... I edited it for clarity here.



Seems like you've been reading too much Tom Clancy, my friend. No one's denying that the US has superior equipment and training. But let's look at one of the examples you drew up: The F-15 is superior to the J-7s and J-8s. Fair enough. But should a war occur between the US and China, where would it be situated? Chances are, near Chinese territory. That's a very broad area obviously, but for argument's sake let's say Taiwan Strait.

Where is the USAF going to deploy its superior F-15s from? Okinawa? How will this affect their combat capabilities due to the limits of fuel? Fact of the matter is that China cannot threaten US soil conventionally, but if you turn it the other way around, China can put up quite a fight despite holding a technological disadvantage. That was the point I was trying to make, which you may have unfortunately overlooked.

First of all I never read Tom Clancy's books before, Second your argument it's good but you forget that a KC-10 Air refueling crafts can refuel F-15s based in Japan or SK other fact is than a F-15 have over 2,000 miles of effective range that should be enoug to escort bombers without the need of air-refueling. Im aware that our forces are far superior to the Chinese forces but I don't underestimate Chinese capabilities and the can retaliate with ICBMs causing serious damage to US soil without the need to invade. (chek
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) of course US BMS will intercept nearly 70% of the Chinese ICBM
(chek
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) as for the infantry... China doesn't fund enough to train infantry as effective as U.S. does. (chek
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)
as for weapons and enquipment for soldiers can you please explain to me how China can possibly enquip as good as the U.S. Army the PLA? Cause China spend around $ 65 billion for their 4 armed forces and US spend over $80 billions for the U.S. Army alone. The PLA have a way more soldiers than the U.S. Army but half of them are conscripts but the U.S. Army have more resourse for less soldiers plus a lot of them have combat experience, the PLA has not combat experiences or either not much combat experience. Taking this facts in consideration you still think the PLA and the U.S. Army infantry still pretty much the same?... because with all the respect buddy. thats not sount very reasonable to me. I suggest you not to belive me but do a little research yourself, chek out the sources that I give you before and go futher. If you find a sourse than tell me otherwise please let me know so I can expand my knowledge

One thing that many people do not realize reguarding the US DoD budjet is that personell cost are included. The US DoD has to pay hundreds of thousands of military active duty and retired personell quite a substantial amount of money.

Well thats a possibility... lets suposse it's like you are saying and 50% (Than is an exageration) to dose people you say... the remaining budget its around $240 billions... Still a way more than China's and Russia defence budget togeter

My contentions are:

Economic disparities

Qualifications of PLA infantry

Perceived qualifications of US Army infantry

And of course, "I herad than the mayority of PLA soldiers bearly have the chance to practice with the Type 56 (a chinese version of the AK-47)."

Now which bone I should pick is entirely up to our dear specialist.

Well Im not and expert in chinese military but I keep an eye on them... you dont have to belive a world of what Im saying but I backed up my arguments with facts (chek out
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,
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, even
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) My question to you buddy: can you reveal your sources to us so we can see the... "light of truth"? and one more thing if you have a chinese sourse (in english of course) can you let me know? cause im eager to know what Chinese commanders think,

Instead of making mutipile post just click the edit button and add to your latest post if no one has responded to you.
 
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Scratch

Captain
Just quick interjection. I think SIPRI figures for China's military expenditure in 2005, considering power purchasing parity, stated $161bn.
 

aquilis182

New Member
here is how i see it, you mentioned the difference in amount military spending, and it does make a big difference in term of military capibility, but some field are more affected than others. When it comes to infantry, it doesnt make that much of a difference, because there are only so many things to put on a solider, a gun, helmet, nightvision, armor etc.The real difference that the money makes are in areas like airforce and navy. US has many times the nulcear forces, many times more aircraft carrier, not to mention the infamously expensive B-2 bomber. So you see that the PLA ground force and the US army has less gap between them.

Let's analyze your argument for a moment. The PLA have significant more soldiers than U.S. Army (Im not trying to lie or something) but U.S. Army have far better trained infantry (chek
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, half of the PLA are conscript (in my point a soldier cannot be as effective if they are force to do something than they don't even want to do, back in the 60' US used to conscrit soldiers too and they fight just because they have to and if they let them leave the forces they do so without thinking twice. off course im not cuestioning PLA bravery in battle cause they are really brave... remember The Korean war... they have guts I'll give you that) The PLA have over 20 years without a major conflict (that may result in a lot of green soldiers, I mean with no combat experience what so ever) let face than the PLA still usin the Type 56 assault riffle (pretty good on reliability and firepower, but lacks in acuracy and firerate) U.S. infantry ... the backbone riffle still the M162A2 (a way more acurate than almost any assault riffle on the world including the Type 56., but to be honest... in terms of reliability it's a pain in the azz... back in Irak I used to clean it 5 to 6 times to make the damn think work properly but in overrall terms still better than any riffle on the world) we are done with the training an the basic assault riffle, now let's talk about now the enquipment shall we? The US spend $80 billions in the U.S. army alone and China spend around $65.5 billions for their 4 armed forces together. Now we can take in consideration than the PLA have around 2.5 millions of soldiers and U.S. Army bearly have 1.9 million. but still have more resourses so maybe the majority of U.S. soldiers will have night vision, body armor, first aid enquipment and extra ammo. And the PLA will face some trouble trying to enquip must of their soldiers cause the have more than USA but have less money than USA. And final The U.S. Army may fight the PLA when The PLAAF and The PLAN where crushed by the USN and the USAF, The USAF and USN ussing air strikes, SLBM, warship artillery, and many more weapons will reduce the PLA considerably, When the PLA has been considerable reduced, hunger and desoriented, They will face The Elite U.S. Marine Corps far better trained than even the U.S. Army, when they take they done exterminating the PLA and PLA marines (I read It's only about 5,000 soldiers at
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) The U.S. Army will arive by sea, air and land and will face even more deterioated PLA, Oviously the U.S. army will have more soldiers than the PLA cause the previous attacks by other U.S. forces not to mention they will be fresh, armed, feeded and eager to battle.
If we take our prides asides and see the things in an analyst way we gonna know that victory for China's forces over th U.S. Forces it's almost impossible... at least for today. In 20 to 30 yrs can be different.
 
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