Hong-Kong Protests

PiSigma

"the engineer"
Universal suffrage does not exist in Hong Kong. Only half of the legislative's seats are directly elected. The other have come from the functional constituencies. The functional constituences are not representative of Hong Kong's electorate as a whole because they're not based on member size.

For example, the Finance FC has less than 200 voters. Whereas the Education FC has upwards of 100,000 voters. But each FC has a seat in the legislative.

Also, if you look at every single election since the handover, the pro-Beijing camp has never gained a majority of seats in the directly elected half, but has always had a large majority in the FCs. I think in the last election the pro-Beijing camp got 16 directly elected seats, but 22 of the FC selected-seats. The pan-Democrats and Localists got 19 directly elected seats but just 7 FC seats.

(3 DC seats to the pan-Democrats and 2 DC seats to the pro-Beijing camp.)

Also there still aren't direct elections for the Chief Executive. The CE is appointed by a committee drawn almost exclusively from the Functional Constituencies. When Beijing proposed a "reform" package, they wanted that same committee to vet all candidates, there could be no more than 3 people running in the election and all candidates would need approval from at least half the committee. So any candidate that wasn't a 100% Beijing loyalist could be vetoed without the HK public ever having a chance to vote for them.

That shows the system is biased in the favour of the HK Establishment and against the interests of the voters as a whole. Therefore it's hardly surprising if the protesters in Hong Kong are calling for actual universal suffrage.



A small number have. And that's after decades of failed promises from the HK Establishment and Beijing over political reform.

"Hey, don't worry, reform's around the corner."
"Listen, we know you've had to wait a long time. We promise universal suffrage is coming soon."
"Well it's not the best reform package, but it's just a stepping-stone to universal suffrage.
"If you go home and stop protesting, we might be able to look at political reform again. But we don't promise it will be what you want."

It's been over 20 years since the handover. Beijing's stalled enough on universal suffrage.



And pro-Beijing officials have also threatened civilians who don't agree with their policies from being banned from standing for election, or threatened companies who didn't publicly endorse the new national security legislation.

People on both sides have tried to use coercion to get their way. Which is why the best way to resolve everyone's grievances is by political reform and direct elections for all legislative seats and the Chief Executive, letting the public decide..
I guess universal suffrage also does not exist in Canada. Since the Canadian Senate is by appointment. Only the lower chamber is by vote, and typically only 30% vote for the majority government party at best. So a majority government is voted in by a minority.

Universal suffrage means each citizen gets a vote, doesn't say how the vote is formulated in parliament
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
Mainland China is Mainland China, being China's territory with Chinese Civil War winners as the government, while Hong Kong is a Chinese territory that got occupied by the British, agreed by a defunct Chinese government to be leased to the Brits and then returned back to the Chinese government by the Brits (probably with under the table threat of the Portuguese experience in India) along with its vestigial Democracy government and colonial laws.

I have to correct one small but very important error here.

Hong Kong was never ever a democracy under the British. Period!
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
Hahahaha, Boris is basically Trump-lite. He isn't as stupid but still a fool nonetheless. Literally the whole point of Brexit was because his racist and white supremacist supporters hated non-white immigrants. Imagine their shock if Boris gave refugee status to 3 million Hong Kong

China should give the EU access to our market and open up our economy to EU companies. We should make peace with India and the SCS dispute. At the same time we need to push the RMB to be more widely accepted, and build up our alliance. We should also continue to upgrade our military and be credible defense for our allies. Instead of fighting with our neighbors let's make peace with them, so we can focus on countering the United States.

Exactly, as someone who had experienced the racist xenophobic Tories in the 70s to 90s, then having to go through again during the Brexit fiasco. Basically every racists xenophobic Tories/Brexiteers felt it was ok to come out and publicly having a go at immigrants (because in the name of having an adult debate, yeah right). Leading to the recent xenophobia regarding "Chinese virus".

After experiencing how at least half the population have some sort of hang up with immigrants, good luck to Boris of putting his proposal of his brave new world of accepting up to 3million yellow skin bat eating migrants from the orients through his party, let along parliament.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
I guess universal suffrage also does not exist in Canada. Since the Canadian Senate is by appointment.

There's a good argument for making the Canadian Senate directly elected. But we're talking about Hong Kong, and LegCo only has the one chamber.

typically only 30% vote for the majority government party at best. So a majority government is voted in by a minority.

At the last election Trudeau had over 30% of the vote but didn't get a majority. He's only ruling with the support of other parties. Also, and more importantly, any of the parties can get a majority of seats in the Canadian Parliament. There aren't any Functional Constituencies that are biased in favour of one party that make it virtually impossible for the others to win.

Universal suffrage means each citizen gets a vote, doesn't say how the vote is formulated in parliament

If Hong Kong didn't have the functional constituencies there wouldn't be a problem. But in effect they grant a small number of influential people a lot of votes, whereas ordinary people just get one. So you can't say there's universal suffrage in HK.
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
I guess universal suffrage also does not exist in Canada. Since the Canadian Senate is by appointment. Only the lower chamber is by vote, and typically only 30% vote for the majority government party at best. So a majority government is voted in by a minority.

Universal suffrage means each citizen gets a vote, doesn't say how the vote is formulated in parliament

Also applies to the UK where he resides. It's funny that! And he talked about the length of time it took. Failing to mention what it took to give the working man the vote in the UK or women for that matter.

And can someone please point out that the UK interest and responsibilities ends on 30th June 1997.

@Mr T

Any news on the treason front?
Or how about Chinese not able to have critical thinking?

Yeah, that's right run away when you get caught!
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
No, I just have a proportionate view of how things work. Lobbying does not equate to meaningful influence. Anyone can lobby, whether it works of not is a different matter.

If business lobbying overrode the views of MPs, the UK wouldn't have a minimum wage and it certainly wouldn't be pushing £9 an hour.



You're talking about the City "Remembrancer". He (or she) can observe proceedings but cannot vote or intervene. In that respect they're no different than a member of the public sitting in the gallery. Similarly they can't see legislation in draft before it's made available to the public.

The office does sometimes give evidence to committees about legislation and review it to see how it might affect the City, but that's about it. The role is largely ceremonial apart from that.

You are deluding yourself on the role of the Remembrancer being ceremonial.
Why does he have a staff of 6 lawyers to review legislation, if not to effectively lobby parliament?

Note the City of London Corporation sends no MPs to Parliament.

So the Remembrancer IS the defacto parliamentary representative for the Square Mile companies who employ 500,000+ people.
The Square Mile pays £75 Billion in taxes, and its revenue is significantly higher still.

Do you seriously think the Remembrancer doesn't see or affect legislation whilst it is being drafted?

I've already pointed out that the members of the City of London Corporation sees the Chinese RMB as the global currency of the future.
That is based on the Chinese economy becoming 2x-3x larger than the US economy.

So the City of London Corporation is extremely interested in good relations with China, because they need access to the RMB (and not necessarily the USD) if they want to retain their position as the financial hub for Europe, the Middle East and Africa.

Suppose China goes with Frankfurt or Switzerland for RMB banking in this region.

It means a China-UK dispute is arguably a mortal threat to the role of the City of London Corporation as a financial centre.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
No, I just have a proportionate view of how things work. Lobbying does not equate to meaningful influence. Anyone can lobby, whether it works of not is a different matter.

If business lobbying overrode the views of MPs, the UK wouldn't have a minimum wage and it certainly wouldn't be pushing £9 an hour.

You think that all businesses want a lower minimum wage so they can pay people less?

Any intelligent banker in the City of London Corporation knows that you want more economic activity to occur.

And the best way to do that is by having higher minimum wages, because that extra money gets spent straightaway and generates even more money flows.

And guess who gets to skim a slice of all those financial transactions?
 

free_6ix9ine

Junior Member
Registered Member
Exactly, as someone who had experienced the racist xenophobic Tories in the 70s to 90s, then having to go through again during the Brexit fiasco. Basically every racists xenophobic Tories/Brexiteers felt it was ok to come out and publicly having a go at immigrants (because in the name of having an adult debate, yeah right). Leading to the recent xenophobia regarding "Chinese virus".

After experiencing how at least half the population have some sort of hang up with immigrants, good luck to Boris of putting his proposal of his brave new world of accepting up to 3million yellow skin bat eating migrants from the orients through his party, let along parliament.
Exactly, as someone who had experienced the racist xenophobic Tories in the 70s to 90s, then having to go through again during the Brexit fiasco. Basically every racists xenophobic Tories/Brexiteers felt it was ok to come out and publicly having a go at immigrants (because in the name of having an adult debate, yeah right). Leading to the recent xenophobia regarding "Chinese virus".

After experiencing how at least half the population have some sort of hang up with immigrants, good luck to Boris of putting his proposal of his brave new world of accepting up to 3million yellow skin bat eating migrants from the orients through his party, let along parliament.

Haha, lets call their bluff on this. China should load up a couple cruise ships full of everyone who wants to leave Hong Kong and sail them toward the UK. Send them 50,000 a day and see how long it takes before Boris Johnson gets impeached by Congress.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Any concerns the Foreign Office had appears to have been considered. I think it was in March, there was a discussion in Cabinet about the issue of HK and BNO passports. At the time the Home Secretary was in favour of changing the law and the Foreign Secretary wasn't. But now that the Foreign Secretary is on board - and indeed making many of the public announcements on the subject - that would appear to show that concerns about a Chinese response have been taken noted but not changed the government's position.

Also, the Foreign Office has no role in the management of immigration. The Home Office is much less worried about diplomacy than the FCO. So I doubt Home Office civil servants would be against a change in the law either.

Next, China hasn't said what it will do. It has made generic threats, like does when arms sales are made to Taiwan or countries criticise it on human rights grounds. There's no reason to believe it will take measures that will make a difference. Like it made threats against Australia and all it did in the end was put some import restrictions on barley. That hasn't changed Australian policy. In fact, I understand there are new rules coming that will restrict foreign takeover of Australian firms on national security grounds, which is largely aimed at China.

If China said something really concrete, like "if you extend immigration rights to HK residents, we will put a total trade and investment embargo on the UK as soon as the transition period with the EU has ended", that might cause a rethink. But if it's just the usual "we'll do something you might not like", I don't see anyone stepping in to help Beijing - unless the new security legislation is surprisingly narrowly-focused and former critics are less worried.

EDIT: Also, I'm slightly confused by your expectations of what will happen next. Are you saying that the UK government will not put the bill forward because of lobbying, or that it will put the bill forward but will be voted down by backbencher MPs?

You fundamentally do not understand how the Chinese government communicates.
They don't like to make disputes or threats public, and would always prefer to settle things privately.
So you'll never get a detailed retaliation publicly attributed to a Chinese government official.
But you can bet these are being delivered privately in person.

That applies to any of the East Asian Confucian countries like Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Singapore.

---
And I'd say the unstated threat to the UK is very simple.

China will threaten to make Switzerland or Frankfurt the offshore RMB for Europe.
That means the end of London as a global financial centre.

The only country that dares sell arms to Taiwan is the USA.

There's a reason why France stopped selling arms to Taiwan for decades.
And I don't expect that arms deal to actually go through, because there are any number of French companies that will find themselves in difficulty.
Remember that China has an economy some 5x larger than France.

And you seem to be deluded in thinking that China has run out of options on Australia.
The Barley tariffs is just a warning shot.
Note that Australia has decided not to retaliate because it knows it will lose in any trade war with China.
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
Let's compare and contrast. This is Trump's press secretary kaylie justifying Trump's use of tear gas and the military in clearing the demonstrators outside the church.

It is justify because the demonstrators was throwing bricks and water bottles! yet in Hong Kong, after police getting shot by arrows and slingshots was deemed excessive use of force.

 
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