I don't think that is the case. Like all things Hong Kong, the MSM made it look like the majority backs protestors. The truth, like all societies are much more complex. A lot of silent majority as in any society can be found.
Hong-Kong Protests
- Thread starter Pika
- Start date
I don't think that is the case. Like all things Hong Kong, the MSM made it look like the majority backs protestors. The truth, like all societies are much more complex. A lot of silent majority as in any society can be found.
I think now I can understand why Beijing is so adamant on the extradition and now the security law. With Hong Kong having its own governance and no extradition law, its 's pretty much a save haven for foreign actors that can blend in under the guise of "democracy".
Looking at how the protests progress to the point of demand for Hong Kong's independence, it's ridiculous to expect Beijing to back down and do nothing in the end.
That would be like if in the cold war Guam/ Puerto Rico as a US territory become a place where KGB agents can go and collect intel with impunity from US laws from because coveniently the government there has it's own laws that's different from US laws and there's no extradition law so they can't be extradited and tried under US laws. Furthermore, the government there is a symphatizer to the communist cause, so they won't out the agents willingly.
And then when the US move to cover that loophole the Guam/Puerto Rico goverment and a part of the population decided to protest and tell the whole world that living in the US is bad and they want independence, even inviting the Soviet Russia to occupy the territory.
The stupid question would be: will the US government back down and let Guam/Puerto Rico go?
Looking at how the protests progress to the point of demand for Hong Kong's independence, it's ridiculous to expect Beijing to back down and do nothing in the end.
That would be like if in the cold war Guam/ Puerto Rico as a US territory become a place where KGB agents can go and collect intel with impunity from US laws from because coveniently the government there has it's own laws that's different from US laws and there's no extradition law so they can't be extradited and tried under US laws. Furthermore, the government there is a symphatizer to the communist cause, so they won't out the agents willingly.
And then when the US move to cover that loophole the Guam/Puerto Rico goverment and a part of the population decided to protest and tell the whole world that living in the US is bad and they want independence, even inviting the Soviet Russia to occupy the territory.
The stupid question would be: will the US government back down and let Guam/Puerto Rico go?
If the Minneapolis and now US-wide protests and riot is any indication, the answer would be a big fat NO. And that's a protest against inequality, with support from US laws, not a protest against US governance system. I'll expect the US to be even more aggressive if my hypotethical scenario actually happened, especially considering how much the US government HATED communism. Beijing response up to now is unbelieveably mild by comparison.
I had a response to your previous post, but it was lost.
The protesters originally formed in March/April in response to an extradition bill that was meant to send a murder suspect to Taiwan. Since Taiwan is technically "Mainland China" under the law, HK could not sign an extradition agreement with their authorities.
The Chief Executive (equivalent to Governor) had originally proposed this bill because people were upset that a potential murder suspect could be released without punishment.
At some point, the narrative completely flipped on her and the protests began. To be fair, this is not completely out of the blue. The lack of extradition between PRC and HK was because HK people were initially fearful of being prosecuted for political crimes in the mainland.
Compared to Guam and Puerto Rico, the national protection is even weaker. In those places FBI and NSA have federal jurisdiction. In HK, there is no jurisdiction at all. There are espionage laws that HK police could technically enforce, however, they are trained mostly to deal with street and organized crime, not state-level actors.
I wouldn't even say the HK government is sympathetic to adversaries is an issue (I don't think it is). The issue is that catching spies is extremely difficult. Say there is a "businessman" in HK who is crossing the border to meet his contacts in mainland China. To HK authorities, this guy looks like any other businessman doing business in China. If you had an FBI, you'd be able to track his movements across state lines. However, in China's case, there is no uniform way for them to keep track of what happens in HK.
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It's like the most messed up result of "one China, two systems" policy, or should I say "Three China, two systems"? Taiwan is, in theory, China's territory, but there is a functioning de facto government that dates back from the Chinese Civil War losers. Mainland China is Mainland China, being China's territory with Chinese Civil War winners as the government, while Hong Kong is a Chinese territory that got occupied by the British, agreed by a defunct Chinese government to be leased to the Brits and then returned back to the Chinese government by the Brits (probably with under the table threat of the Portuguese experience in India) along with its vestigial Democracy government and colonial laws. The reason why I call it "Three China, Two systems" is because there are three parties (Taiwan, Mainland China, and Hong Kong) while there are two systems (Democracy and "Socialism with Chinese values", whatever that means)
For political crimes, I do understand why. With such different governmental systems and the bad blood between the two thanks to the Cold War, it's normal to be suspicious, especially when there's no independent press in the Mainland and its opaque system of conviction. That said, while the Chinese government-owned press is often accused of propaganda (and I think sometimes the accusation is justified), the US so-called "Free press" isn't free from the same fault either. It is just US free press mostly answers to its private shareholders, while Chinese government-owned press answers to the Chinese government.
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AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
I know of Chinese families where they're so stuck on their beliefs that they'll rather let their children get beat up by bullies than dare raise a hand to defend themselves. Is it because they're pacifists? No. They're worried because having children that will take up violence is a bad reflection upon them by other Chinese. They're not in control of their family and that's bad in Chinese culture. I know another family where both parents had mental problems and they had children and forced on them some of their crazy beliefs that were not in line with functioning in a normal society. Some of the children rebelled and extended family members came in to defend the parents not the children. Why? Because in their beliefs it is paramount that the children are obedient to their parents even if they're crazy. There's no exception. And I see those kids today older and they seem to be crazy too now. I've also had experience too with a guy from Hong Kong who married my sister. He looks down at Mainland Chinese too calling them hillbillies. He thinks I'm suppose to blindly obey him simply because he's older than me. He even demands money and gets angry if he doesn't get it. He thinks I violated cultural laws by disobeying and he tries to punish me by trying to embarrass me in front of strangers when he can. It doesn't happen often because I don't hang around him but when he has an opportunity, he does it. The last time he did it in front of white people where he all of the sudden out-loud he acted like he was in mid-conversation accusing me of being a cry-baby because he wanted those white people to hear the insult he just gave me. Without a beat I said out loud, "Oh you mean like when you had to bring my sister to the hospital for injuries she received and the hospital staff called the police on you for domestic violence and you were crying when the police put the handcuffs on you...? That kind of crying?" He was livid how I embarrassed him especially in front of white people. He didn't say a word after that. And as we were going our separate ways I said out-loud, "Don't beat up any pet animals out of frustration because I just humiliated you in front of everyone." I heard from others after that exchange they thought they might have to bring him to the hospital because it looked he was on the verge of a heart attack. Even after that I had some extended family members say I went too far even though he was lying and I told the truth. Why? Because I'm younger I suppose to respect the hierarchy and of course it's a bad reflection upon the family.
I'm only following the logic of Chinese culture. Hong Kong can't control their family so that's a bad reflection upon all of Hong Kongers no matter if they agree or not of what protestors are doing. If they don't like it then it's up to them to apply the pressure in their own family to change it.
Boris can't even keep his promise to his own people.
Hahahaha, Boris is basically Trump-lite. He isn't as stupid but still a fool nonetheless. Literally the whole point of Brexit was because his racist and white supremacist supporters hated non-white immigrants. Imagine their shock if Boris gave refugee status to 3 million Hong Kong
China should give the EU access to our market and open up our economy to EU companies. We should make peace with India and the SCS dispute. At the same time we need to push the RMB to be more widely accepted, and build up our alliance. We should also continue to upgrade our military and be credible defense for our allies. Instead of fighting with our neighbors let's make peace with them, so we can focus on countering the United States.
Mr T
Senior Member
I'm not sure it's necessary for spies to do lots of physical meets these days. If you're working for a professional agency you can transmit information digitally via code and/or encryption with the software to cover your tracks.
Besides, with modern transport links you can get into and out of China easily enough. If Hong Kong became too hot, people could easily use Singapore, Manilla, any Taiwanese city, etc instead if they really had to transfer information physically. In fact, Taiwan is probably a more ideal hub because the authorities there are hostile to the CCP. Whereas the HK authorities will cooperate with the mainland Chinese authorities, especially in private.
Besides the timing of the announcement of the new security law seems suspiciously well-timed to come into force in advance of the upcoming LegCo election and also followed the disasterous District Council election result.
It's smoke and mirrors again. Or Mr T lack comprehension skills, or worse it is deliberately misleading.
You see. The survey of the Consrvatives are on the proposed extension of stay proposed by Boris. So the rank and file will support Boris up to the hilt..... providing they haven't lost much in return. ie; full citizenship to the "yellow peril"!
Now before anyone complaints, I'm deliberately using that phrase (I could USA alot worse) to highlight the type people that I have personally encountered in the Conservative clubs just to illustrate the racist xenophobic people that exist in the Conservative party.
If the survey ask do they support granting of full citizenship. (Highly unlikely because Boris wouldn't dare to propose it the first place) the result would be turned upside down it's head.
By showing a survey that asked a question on the proposed extension to back up his argument that the Tories are in unity to suppport mass permanent immigration, and permanent citizenship with full rights and benefits is very underhanded of him.