New Type98/99 MBT thread

zraver said:

Red not dead, the pak40 a 75mm was not avaible in 1941. The gemran infantry marched into russia with 28mm and 37mm ATG's. The first big caliber ATG in widespread use was either rebarreled FRussian 76mm feild guns or Pak 38 50mm in dedicated anti-tank units.



It looks to be around 560mm which is not a real Long rod penetrator by Western standards where the leangth is in excess of 700mm and as high as 850mm.

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I was speaking of the Pak 38 - 50mm widely available and really good for close AT purposes. And the Pak 36 (r) only hit the shelves by late 1941.

Red not Dead said:

I was speaking of the Pak 38 - 50mm widely available and really good for close AT purposes. And the Pak 36 (r) only hit the shelves by late 1941.

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The problem was that the 50mm was virtually useless against the Russian medium and heavy tanks such as the KV-1 and T-34. A tungsten shell was developed, which improved effectiveness, but the supply of tungsten soon ran out, and the Germans turned to larger weapons.

But that's beside the point here.

Pointblank said:

The problem was that the 50mm was virtually useless against the Russian medium and heavy tanks such as the KV-1 and T-34. A tungsten shell was developed, which improved effectiveness, but the supply of tungsten soon ran out, and the Germans turned to larger weapons.

But that's beside the point here.

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Yes but woefully it remained the Main gun of the Panzer Corps for one more year...and served with great effectiveness when it mattered. Notice I'm not defending ze Germans but they had the tools to bring any soviet tank into pieces.

Red not Dead said:

Yes but woefully it remained the Main gun of the Panzer Corps for one more year...and served with great effectiveness when it mattered. Notice I'm not defending ze Germans but they had the tools to bring any soviet tank into pieces.

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The Germans became desperate again and utilized their FlaK guns for anti-tank use, plus properly utilized artillery and air support to knock out tanks that held up the advance. Superior tactics also mattered.

The Russian tanks also had serious problems that allowed the Germans to adapt. Poor optics, and horrible crew training, lack of radios, and infexability on the part of commanders.

If Mikhail Tukhachevsky (?) and his cadre had not been purged 1941 might have gone very differently.

German actually wanted to copy the T-34, they did a thorough research on it. But the Russian tank engine was made of aluminum while Germany's always steel, so they abandoned the idea.

Pointblank said:

I would really would listen to zraver, as he has a lot more experience with these issues and scenarios than any of you. It is just mathematically and scientifically impossible to make the claims the Chinese are making. I can see some improvements made by the Chinese in some areas with the 125mm gun technology, but not to the extent the Chinese are claiming. Even my contacts will agree with this; some of the Chinese claims are highly exaggerated, and may appear creditable to a layman's view, but someone with technical expertise will tear apart the claim pretty quickly.

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BUt Zraver estimation and facts is heavily based on western tank and Russian one which he has no info on Chinese one. USing Western and Russian one as a guage is by no mean correct and has limited scope. Weight and size of the 125mm shell is highly critical to the penetration and facts we are arguing which we do not have the actual facts..

Fishhead is also by no mean an amatuer. From some of his post ,he is also quite knowlegdable on the facts of Type 99. HIs assessment on the length of the 125mm Chinese rds is very detail based on the pic proved and fits quite well on the article provided regarding the performance of Type 99 gun..

Kilo636 said:

Weight and size of the 125mm shell is highly critical to the penetration and facts we are arguing which we do not have the actual facts..

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The fact is, Chinese barrel is common with Russian's only in caliber. But it's made using German technology, same as German and US tank gun barrel. So it has higher chamber pressure than Russian one.

Chinese got that technology in 1980s when it urgently needed to upgrade its tank gun against Soviet. Germany/Austria lent a hand to Chinese and transfered the 120 gun technology to them at that time.

But they chose to build 125 gun with that.

German technology? Austrian L7 was pretty much the last western tank piece PRC had direct access to.

Chinese got that technology in 1980s when it urgently needed to upgrade its tank gun against Soviet. Germany/Austria lent a hand to Chinese and transfered the 120 gun technology to them at that time.

But they chose to build 125 gun with that

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Now this is getting silly...So if the chinese would theoretically have the acces to western technology and as they didn't choose it, it means that the one that they did choose to produce must be better than the western system (and naturally better than any russian system)?? Wow, man you kids can make up nice logics