J-15 carrier-borne fighter thread

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
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The J-15 is objectively not a good aircraft, especially if operating from a STOBAR carrier. It was a successful project only to the extent that it gave Liaoning and Shandong something resembling an air wing. Other than that, it is plagued with problems - maximum takeoff weight, reliability, size, and so forth.

The J-15 can take off with full load only from the rearmost position. Anywhere else, and you might as well have a flock of ducks for an air wing.

I'm just gonna correct one statement from the many errors, the J-15 has NOT departed with a full load out from the Liaoning, it might do that if? you were steaming at full bore with an additional 25 knot head wind on the beam. Not even from the aft launch position, where it no doubt launches almost every time, unless its for a photo-op.

If you have a picture with a fully loaded J-15 flying away off the ramp post it! Now having said that, the J-15 continues to be an awesome aircraft for CV-16 and CV-17, the Chinese are/will continue to operate it as they have been since the J-15's first flight....

They are very happy with this airplane, and it has an excellent safety record for a new build bird, off a resurrected Liaoning. China continuing to train and operate this aircraft, is proof positive that despite its critics, and there are many, and some of their concerns are legitimate....

But as I always say, the Liaoning, (USSFORD, CV-17, etc, etc...) is just the "Love Boat" with out its air wing.... when China designs, builds, and launches another fixed wing fighter off CV-16 or CV-17, and discontinues air ops off the boat, then, and ONLY then, will these types of statements contain an element of truth....

"ONLY THEN", not today, not tommorow, not next week, NOT NEXT YEAR! only then, as of today, and into the near term, the J-15 is "China's F-14/Super Hornet, as long as it flies off the boat, and until something else launches off a Chinese Aircraft Carrier, the J-15 is a "Raging Success"!
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
The J-15 is easier to handle. It does not put so much stress on the arresting wire system. Simply the better airplane for someone who wants to start from scratch and doesn't want to miss an important learning phase.

actually the J-15 is much heavier than the Mig-29K, so it puts more stress on the arresting system, didn't the Russians end up with an Su-33 and a Mig-29K in the drink after their last foray??

I do agree the J-15 is a much better airframe, if China had wanted the Mig-29K, the Russian's would have "peed their pants" cranking those babies out for the Chinese, look at the Su-35, whatever China wants, China gets!

once China floats their CATOBAR carrier, the J-15 will be there, "hook, line, and sinker", and it will prove its critics have "miscalculated"....

with all due respect to Master Chief, BDPopeye, I am 100% convinced the Flanker remains a better airplane, even with its operating limitations than the Mig-29, but and if China develops/buys the Mig-29K or any other variant and begins launching off the Liaoning/CV-17, I WILL give you all an "official Air Force Brat apology", trust me on this.......

"carry on!", Brat

this is so much fun!
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
But..not so much with a MiG-29. So I've always wondered why China did not go with the MiG-29 from the outset of her CV programme? Was it an import issue? Just why did they opt for the J-15 which is hampered by the ski ramp?

and here I am back with a moment of clarity, my own pretentious posts should be taken with a grain of salt compared to the real world experience of the "Master Chief", BDPOPEYE, who served on 5 count em 5, Aircraft Carrier's....

Please accept my sincerest apologies Chief, and I'm so very thankful that we here on SDF, have the true Blessing of your "real life" experience, I'll be confining myself to quarters Chief! "by your leave sir?"... brat
 
D

Deleted member 13312

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But..not so much with a MiG-29. So I've always wondered why China did not go with the MiG-29 from the outset of her CV programme? Was it an import issue? Just why did they opt for the J-15 which is hampered by the ski ramp?
Ironically I did say that the cause for it has something to do with the Su-27 and J-15 itself. Back in the 1990s got the Su-27 from Russia and then cloned and build an entire variant of them. So understandably Russia was kinda upset, this very well could have sunk any further export prospects.
Although IMO even if China did somehow got a carrier variant of the MIG-29, things might not have been better for them anyway. Even if it is a smaller plane the Mig-29 is still subjected to all the limitations of a STOBAR carrier as the J-15 is. That it can takeoff closer to the maximum load off a STOBAR is more an optical illusion, as the maximum range of a Mig-29 is 1400 km while a Su-33 is 3000km so even if the Su-33 takes off at half fuel it is still going to slightly outrange the Mig-29.
 
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Deino

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The new line has been operating for five months. Supposedly we will see new Flying Sharks coming out soon.


which would fit nicely for the spring/summer-training session with the new aircraft off the new carrier.

Any news, when the painted FC-31V2 will be shown ... and news from the new aircraft will be unveiled?
 

by78

General
Official images from AVIC showing new J-15s being produced. Note the green primer now covers more of the fuselage compared to previous batches.

The Chinese characters in the images are basically slogans saying something to the effect of "resuming production, full steam ahead" and so on, confirming previous rumors that a new production line had been operating for sometime.

49568256442_7e1481b1a4_o.jpg

49568029701_040cbef7cf_o.jpg

49568029651_2310988159_o.jpg



As a comparison, below image shows an older airframe with mostly yellow primer.
49568256397_eef2b6633a_b.jpg
 
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Blitzo

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I don't like how this discussion has devolved into bickering over whether or not the J-15 is a successful project. It's been two pages and no one has brought up any concrete points, and in an unsuitable thread for it, no less.

The J-15 is objectively not a good aircraft, especially if operating from a STOBAR carrier. It was a successful project only to the extent that it gave Liaoning and Shandong something resembling an air wing. Other than that, it is plagued with problems - maximum takeoff weight, reliability, size, and so forth.

The J-15 can take off with full load only from the rearmost position. Anywhere else, and you might as well have a flock of ducks for an air wing. This is probably the most severe limitation, but it can be remedied with a catapult-launched version, taking off from CATOBAR carriers. Aside from that, with only ~20 aircraft operated in the last 6 years, there has been two crashes, highlighting unspecified issues with reliability. We don't know exactly what's wrong but it's safe to guess that there are problems.

It is also a very large aircraft, which takes up a lot of deck/hangar space. If the Chinese Navy operated F/A-18s instead of J-15s, they could probably squeeze 35-40 planes onto each carrier instead of only 24-30. Of course, there is a trade-off in terms of how much fuel/ordnance each aircraft can carry and how far it can fly, so whether or not the PLAN will use a smaller airframe for its next-generation carrier-based fighter is something we'll find out soon.

At this point, the J-15 era is over. It's a successful demonstrator but its value stops there. It's finished, and the fact that no more airframes are being produced says a lot. The question now is if they will rush development of the next-generation aircraft that do not have these issues and limitations, or if they will take it slow, and restart J-15 production in the interim. The popular concensus is the former, but it is difficult to say with any kind of confidence.

I'm coming to this discussion late, but I would like to contribute my 2 cents as well.

So, the size of the J-15 is arguably its most inherent limitation, but that is the price of entry for wanting a relatively large fighter, and even a folded footprint of a J-15/Su-33 is only slightly longer than a super hornet and almost the same folded width.
5HnndL5.jpg



But as far as J-15s payload is concerned, even launching from the forward positions on a STOBAR carrier it should be more than capable of carrying a relevant A2A payload and even an A2G or anti ship payload -- not at its full MTOW of course, but still an operationally useful load. For example, a couple of YJ-83Ks (1.4 tons total), plus 2 PL-8s and 2 PL-12s (600kg total) will still be under half (approximately 2 tons) the max external payload of a J-15 (6.5 tons!).
Furthermore, as others have written, issues of payload when taking off from the forward positions will of course be wholly mitigated if a CATOBAR compatible J-15 variant is developed.


I don't even think the crashes with J-15 should be attributed to something inherent in the design of the aircraft rather than any combination of the following: the first carrier based aircraft developed by the Chinese aerospace industry, the high pace of training that the PLAN are likely doing for their pilots (if the introduction of 4th gen aircraft when they were knew to the PLA was any guide), as well as the overall fact that the PLAN have never operated carrier based aviation in general.



I certainly have nothing against accelerating the 5th generation carrier fighter, but even then it probably won't be entering operation before 2025 to be generous (assuming it flies sometime alter this year, which is widely predicted but not yet guaranteed).
However between now and 2025 (or later) is still at least 5 years that the PLAN will be going without any new carrier fighters if they don't produce more J-15s. Furthermore there is also 003 that will likely enter service sometime before 2025 -- i.e.: before the 5th gen carrier fighter enters service.


IMO it would make sense for the PLAN to order a relatively large batch of new build J-15s with various upgrades from the original (chief of which would be avionics, including AESA and so forth). These aircraft would be used aboard CV-16 and CV-17. These new build J-15s would have similar capabilities to J-16 in terms of avionics and payload presumably.
A batch of CATOBAR compatible J-15s could then be ordered after it, with similar upgrades, to be used aboard 003.

---- or an even better idea would be to simply order a large batch of new build J-15s with aforementioned avionics upgrades, but with all of them being CATOBAR compatible. That would allow all of these new build J-15s to be cross deck compatible between the STOBAR carriers (CV-16 and CV-17) as well as the CATOBAR carriers (003 and beyond), which would significantly prolong and extend their usefulness and the naval air wing's overall flexibility.
 

Blitzo

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Staff member
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Official images from AVIC showing new J-15s being produced. Note the green primer now covers more of the fuselage compared to previous batches. The Chinese characters in the images are basically slogans saying something to the effect of "resuming production, full steam ahead" and so on, confirming previous rumors that a new production had been operating for sometime.

49568256442_7e1481b1a4_o.jpg

49568029701_040cbef7cf_o.jpg

49568029651_2310988159_o.jpg



As a comparison, below image shows an older airframe with mostly yellow primer.
49568256397_eef2b6633a_b.jpg

Nice eye and thanks for posting.

Also, (modifying my post from the Flanker thread a bit), regarding the radar question...

Previously there was some thought that the presence of an air data probe on the radome of an aircraft suggests it may be using a mechanically scanned array, but looking closely we can see that different SAC Flankers have different air data probe configurations. J-11B and J-15 (both understood to have mechanically scanned arrays) have different configurations with an air data probe on the radome as well as probes on the side, while J-16 and J-11D and J-15D (understood to have AESAs) have configurations where there is no probe on the radome and only probes on the side.

However, J-11BG with its grey radome and which we suspect have been upgraded with an AESA, retains its radome air data probe.
Similarly, upgraded F-16Vs upgraded with AESAs also retain its air data probe on the radome.



Now, if those pictures are indeed of J-15 batch 3 (and I do note that there is the distinctive canard on the airframe in the first pic), in the second pic on the nose we can see that the air data probe on the radome is still there.

... However I find it somewhat doubtful that SAC would produce J-15s in 2020 with mechanically scanned arrays (or indeed without any meaningful upgrade from the original J-15s).
Therefore, if we know from other examples that a radome air data probe doesn't preclude an AESA from being present, I have to wonder if we should keep an ear out for what kind of upgrades these supposed batch 3 J-15s may or may not have.

probes.jpg
 
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