Chinese Economics Thread

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
So much for Trump and his supporters claiming that he's hurting China in this trade war and collecting all those taxes that "China is paying" for! Lol.

So I guess this would come as a bit of a shock to him and his supporters. On CGTN news just now. China just reported 5% growth in export year on year. With ASEAN replacing USA as China's 2nd largest trading partner!

It's funny we don't hear him saying trade war is easy to win any more .
It is actually 0.5%, which means that the EU, ASEAN, and African countries are supplanting the US and growing fast (I think some 15-20% for BRI countries by some other article), but they're not making the US worthless yet.
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China reports its exports edged 0.5% higher in 2019 despite US tariff war, after December growth rebounds

On another note, America's final push please-don't-use-Huawei nag/beg/threaten-tactic ran into another brick wall today this time in the UK.
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UK rebuffs US presentation on Huawei security risks

Britain believes the information dramatically presented by a delegation from Donald Trump’s administration about the risks of using
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technology in 5G networks contains nothing its intelligence agencies had not foreseen.

The rebuff implies that British intelligence will not alter its assessment that the security risk the Chinese company’s technology presents to British citizens is manageable, as a final decision by the UK on whether to use Huawei looms.

On Monday, a delegation of senior Trump administration officials flew into the UK to present what they said was fresh technical evidence about the security risks allegedly posed by Huawei – and made a last-ditch call for Britain to implement a full 5G ban.

In his first interview of the new year, with BBC Breakfast, the prime minister said: “The British public deserve to have access to the best possible technology. We want to put in gigabit broadband for everybody. Now if people oppose one brand or another then they have to tell us what’s the alternative.”

The US officials had warned that intelligence-sharing with the UK could be halted in future, and argued that any use of Huawei equipment in the British 5G network presented an unacceptable security risk.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
As with all things, the devil is in the details.

The headline $200bn shopping list might seem massive, but firstly that is over two years, so only $100bn per year. That is against $120bn America exported to China in 2018.

That is significant because China could simply change its purchase pattern. So instead of buying $120bn of US goods incrementally over the year, it can make one big lump sum purchase at the start of the year, with deferred deliveries spread over the year, and just not make any more purchases.

Obviously that’s just a general idea and it won’t be possible to do that with the whole $100bn, but I would bet it would be possible to do so with a significant proportion, so the net extra additional purchases is going to be only a fraction of the headline $200bn figure.

If China is smart, and it most certainly is, it can also schedule the purchases to start with things it would have bought regardless, that way if the trade deal falls apart later, it can just run down those initial lump sum purchases instead of making new orders, and not really be out of pocket at all.

It can also make deferred ‘purchases’ whereby orders are placed, but deliveries are schedule for months or even years later, with payment on delivery of goods/services.

Those are just some obvious examples, the key is the detailed rules and definitions in terms of what is possible and what is not. But as a general rule of thumb, it is always possible to get around rules with expensive enough lawyers.

A good illustration is on agricultural goods. The SCMP article strangely chose to use the 2016 agricultural figures of $20bn, and is similarly oddly querying if China can make $40bn of purchases over 2 years.

However, if you look at more recent trade numbers, in 2018 Chinese imports of US agricultural goods was only $5.9bn. So, the far more obvious and pertinent question is, just how is the US going to meet a $40bn order when starting from a base of just $6bn? That’s nearly a 6 times increase in annual output if ordered within 1 year, and over a 2 times increase if over 2 years.

So, even if this $200bn is supposed to be ‘new’ purchases, it can mean substantially less depending on which year is used as the benchmark.

And just for the sake of argument, as a worst case scenario, let’s say that the $200bn is supposed to be new purchases on 2016 baseline.

On the face of it, that looks terrible for China as it needs to make massive additional purchases. But how is America planning on actually meeting this sudden one-off leap in demand that is double their previous annual export to China?

It just isn’t going to be done, because even if it is technically possible, few companies would be willing to take on the massive risk to actually make the massive investment needed to double their annual output or more for a one-off large order.

That means the US has to either open up previously protected sectors to export to China, or that $200bn cannot possibly all be additional new purchases.

Even if Trump goes full communist and uses state subsidies to massively boost supply to meet this demand, that’s both a terrible economic decision, and one that would hand China enormous power.

Because at the end of the period, after the US has invested heavily to boost output and made $200bn worth of goods ready for delivery, China can just pull a Trump and demand to renegotiate everything, or else it will rip up the whole trade deal and refuse to buy any of those $200bn (or however much is left) worth of American goods.

We can sit here and game out any number of possible scenarios, but at the end of the day, it’s the detailed rules and provisions in the agreement that matters so much more than the headline numbers. So unless we get those detailed fine print, it’s very hard to make a conclusive conclusion.

But my feeling is that Trump would care most about the headline numbers, whereas China would care more about the detailed rules. Based on that, if there isn’t a detailed list of rules published to go with this agreement, then I would maintain my previous conclusion that China would have gotten the better end of the deal in the details and fine print, which could make the headline numbers all but meaningless. If there is a detailed fine print published to go with the agreement, we can finally make a definitive analysis once we have a copy.

Trump could simply cancel the trade deal anytime he likes .. and I am sure that China is prepared for it .. he has no credibility at all
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
It is actually 0.5%, which means that the EU, ASEAN, and African countries are supplanting the US and growing fast (I think some 15-20% for BRI countries by some other article), but they're not making the US worthless yet.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

China reports its exports edged 0.5% higher in 2019 despite US tariff war, after December growth rebounds

On another note, America's final push please-don't-use-Huawei nag/beg/threaten-tactic ran into another brick wall today this time in the UK.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

UK rebuffs US presentation on Huawei security risks

Britain believes the information dramatically presented by a delegation from Donald Trump’s administration about the risks of using
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
technology in 5G networks contains nothing its intelligence agencies had not foreseen.

The rebuff implies that British intelligence will not alter its assessment that the security risk the Chinese company’s technology presents to British citizens is manageable, as a final decision by the UK on whether to use Huawei looms.

On Monday, a delegation of senior Trump administration officials flew into the UK to present what they said was fresh technical evidence about the security risks allegedly posed by Huawei – and made a last-ditch call for Britain to implement a full 5G ban.

In his first interview of the new year, with BBC Breakfast, the prime minister said: “The British public deserve to have access to the best possible technology. We want to put in gigabit broadband for everybody. Now if people oppose one brand or another then they have to tell us what’s the alternative.”

The US officials had warned that intelligence-sharing with the UK could be halted in future, and argued that any use of Huawei equipment in the British 5G network presented an unacceptable security risk.

Sorry, I should have made it clearer, the 5% growth is measured in Yuan term. Where as the 0.5% is in dollar term. Either way, both figures are positive, which really put pay to Trump's boast about him winning the trade war! Don't get me wrong, no one wins in a trade war, all I'm pointing out is is not one sided like Trump and MSM claimed.

The good thing about this is that at the moment, ASEAN have taken up some of the slack. But it won't be able to continue, so China need to diversify more and seek new markets.

I reproduced below a write up from SMCP. They are, even now, trying to paint a gloomy picture by stating growth "decelerated sharply". Yes, that's true, no one is denying a trade war won't have any affects. It just that it just not as bad as they lead people to believe. Whereas, in the USA, the effect it's far worse than what they are trying to portrait!

From SCMP:

China’s export growth decelerated sharply to 0.5 per cent in 2019 in US dollar terms from a rise of 9.9 per cent in 2018 amid the trade war with the United States, according to data released on Tuesday.

Zou Zhiwu, a deputy minister at the General Administration of Customs, confirmed the slowdown at a press conference after China had initially only released its 2019 trade figures only in yuan terms.

Imports, meanwhile, fell by 2.8 per cent in 2019 in in US dollar terms.

In yuan terms, China’s exports expanded by 5 per cent in 2019, while imports expanded 1.6 per cent.
 
Yesterday at 1:22 AM
...

the full text of that agreement is going to be of interest
now though speculations about
Trade war: China, US may not release full details of phase one deal set for signing this week
  • Former White House official suggests that the full details of a US-China phase one trade deal will not be released
  • Text on structural terms will be published, but information on individual commodity purchases will not be made public

so follow the link
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if interested
 

TK3600

Captain
Registered Member
Sorry, I should have made it clearer, the 5% growth is measured in Yuan term. Where as the 0.5% is in dollar term. Either way, both figures are positive, which really put pay to Trump's boast about him winning the trade war! Don't get me wrong, no one wins in a trade war, all I'm pointing out is is not one sided like Trump and MSM claimed.

The good thing about this is that at the moment, ASEAN have taken up some of the slack. But it won't be able to continue, so China need to diversify more and seek new markets.

I reproduced below a write up from SMCP. They are, even now, trying to paint a gloomy picture by stating growth "decelerated sharply". Yes, that's true, no one is denying a trade war won't have any affects. It just that it just not as bad as they lead people to believe. Whereas, in the USA, the effect it's far worse than what they are trying to portrait!

From SCMP:

China’s export growth decelerated sharply to 0.5 per cent in 2019 in US dollar terms from a rise of 9.9 per cent in 2018 amid the trade war with the United States, according to data released on Tuesday.

Zou Zhiwu, a deputy minister at the General Administration of Customs, confirmed the slowdown at a press conference after China had initially only released its 2019 trade figures only in yuan terms.

Imports, meanwhile, fell by 2.8 per cent in 2019 in in US dollar terms.

In yuan terms, China’s exports expanded by 5 per cent in 2019, while imports expanded 1.6 per cent.
But dollar is for most trade though. Wouldnt it be more accurate?
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
But dollar is for most trade though. Wouldnt it be more accurate?

Not when the Chinese economy works in Yuan; increasingly Chinese companies are trading in Yuan internationally, and the importance of Sino-US trade diminishes with the trade war.

At the end of the day, Chinese companies report in Yuan and the vast majority do the vast majority of their spending in Yuan. So in terms of profitability and liquidity, the Yuan figure is most important metric in assessing the bottom line results of trade. That is the standard practice of any company that operates international and trades in multiple currencies.

USD trade figures are only really relevant when assessing Sino-US trade. To report Chinese trade in Yuan and other non-USD currencies in USD will introduce a massive amount of FX variance to skew the results, which is why you get the 0.5% vs 5.5% disparity.

Trade in USD is a useful measure to compare between economies to see how Chinese trade measured up against other countries all in the same currency.
 

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
Lol I forgot where I read this but it wants all Chinese students to take 2 years of democracy and human rights classes if they wanna study in the US.

Didn't know "rights" have to be taught.
 

Just4Fun

Junior Member
Registered Member
Trump has won his Trade War against China?
Are you sure you know what you are talking about?
China's foreign trade is not just alive, but lives sound and well.


MoC: Emerged Five New Features of China's Foreign Trade in 2019

商务部:2019年我国外贸呈现5个新特征
2020-01-15 18:58 来源:证券日报网 刘萌

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Key points:
1) In general, China's foreign trade materialized a satisfactory growth under unsatisfactory external environment.
2) There are five new features emerging in China's foreign trade during 2019. They are:
(A) Both the amount of China's foreign trade and China's share in world trade system reach new historical highs. Total imports & exports value is 31.54 Trillion Yuan, a 3.4% increase Y-O-Y. China's share in world trade is 13.1%, a 0.3% increase Y-O-Y.
(B) Distribution of trading partners is further optimized. Trading with Belt & Road countries increases 10.8%, taking a lion share of 29.4% in China's total foreign trades. Origins and quality of export goods are also further optimized.
(C) Innovations in trading open up new commerce frontiers, particularly in e-commerce.
(D) Foreign trade accounts for 19.6% of GDP growth. Trade surplus increases 19.8% to $421.51 billions.
(E) Continually being the second largest importer of the world for 11 sequential years. China's imports accounts for more than 10% of world import value.
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
But dollar is for most trade though. Wouldnt it be more accurate?

Yes and no?! Confused, you'll be! Lol

I see others have answered your question regarding dollars quite well.

So I will add this to aid understanding. Look at it as volume and value. The yuan increase is in volume and the dollar increase is in value .

So basically what happens is the Chinese are working harder with an increase of 5% in productivity but only getting a paid increase of 0.5%. Another word they was a depreciation in the value of the yuan (please don't scream currency manipulator, we could discuss that till the cows come home )!

But no matter, within China, the export industries has grown by 5% which translate to 5% more purchase power domestically. Of course, purchasing power of foreign goods is not so good. But it does encourage purchase of home-made goods!

In any case, the point I was making was which ever way you look at it, there's positive growth, and when I was working in industry (before becoming a lecturer), my bosses always said any growth is good growth!

So, sure. I'm sure the Chinese would like better growth rate, but given the hostile (near war-like) situation Trump put on China. I'll put it down as a win! Unlike what the white house and MSM keep telling us otherwise. And let's face it, the USA didn't come up of this situation smelling of roses!
 
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