For a long range missile, supersonic speed all the way does have its advantages though, due to shorter time of flight. It simplifies the targeting problem somewhat by reducing the reliance on off-board sensors and mid-course updates because the target cannot deviate from its predicted position by as much. Thus the probability of the seeker successfully acquiring the (correct) target once the missile closes in is improved compared to a subsonic cruise, supersonic terminal dash concept with the same guidance.
054/A FFG Thread II
- Thread starter tphuang
- Start date
My thought would be why should the PLAN choose the 054 platform to build its designated ASW/ASuW ship, if this ship uses the whole combat suite from the 052D? According to what you said, wouldn't it be better to simply build an ASW/ASuW ship based off the 052B platform with a lengthened helicopter platform and adding one more hanger (I designate this hypothetical model as the 052BG, for discussion sake)? I think the U-VLS system, along with the electronic and radar components of the 052D/DL forms a complete combat system. Now, if you are moving that whole system to a smaller platform (4000-5000 ton frigate) with a reduced number of VLS cells (exactly halfed), what exactly make this plan better than an improved "052BG"(with U-VLS: HQ-9B, and YJ-18 series)? Why not just open a third production line in a large military shipyard in Guangzhou, and have three shipyard all building 052DL and "052BG"? This will make it rather cheap to build this proposed "052BG" because the economy of scale. Besides, with all the added benefits you've stated, it would have the numerical advantage of the cheaper 054 platform meaningless. With the same money, the PLAN would have a much more potent force with less number of these new ASW ships.
Besides, the refitted 051B has its A/JK-16 VLS lower than the S-300 on 051C. If the PLAN really wanted the 051B to be fitted with U-VLS, it would have just put on a raised deck, like the 051C, or the 051B before the refit. But what ended up happening is that the raised deck on which the HHQ-7 was on was taken out. This put the 32-cell A/JK-16 much lower than 051C.
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That's true. However the missile can also be detected earlier and it needs to cruise at an altitude higher than the subsonic missile.
I must also add that using the slant launchers limits you to using only the YJ-12 itself. The U-VLS still has potential for all sorts of other missiles in the future, ranging from a hypersonic antiship missile to an LRASM style one.
I won't say the 054A is fully dedicated ASW. You can see from the beginning of the 054A, where the first batch lacks TAS and VDS, that it was meant as a general purpose frigate that was needed to be mass produced to rapidly fill in the need for more modern ships in the PLAN. Go back prior to that, to the 054, and the ship maybe more of a response to Taiwan getting their Lafayette class frigates.
Lets say the 054B is a 40 cell ship. 32 U-VLS for HQ-9 and 8 VLS for ASM.
Lets say then the 052E (like I was discussing with Andrew in another thread) is a modified 052 platform with 80 VLS. The ship deletes the VHF antenna and turns that space for an additional 16 VLS while using the 346B radar of the 055, along with its integrated mast. Call it a mini 055.
Lets say the future 055 is now extended to a 128 VLS ship.
Now you have three tiers with the number of cells well spread out --- 40, 80 and 128.
Guangzhou Huangpu and Hudong Zhonghua won't fit a 052D inside the sheds where they are building the 056 and 054A as well as coast guard vessels.
The 052BG is not a bad idea for using a CODAG two GT and two diesel platform with a reduced radar cost set and U-VLS. The 052 started out as a 4000 ton displacement ship, and the Russian frigates like the Admiral Grigorovich and Gorshkov are both powered by two GTs and two diesels.
It probably would have been more expensive and more work done around that area. The refit was chosen because it was the cheapest and quickest way possible. They don't plan to keep this ship for a very long time. The 051B would have difficulty providing the high quality tracking information needed for guidance of the HHQ-9 as it has no place for the Type 346 radars.
Already the 051B refit has omitted the Type 366 "Bandstand" radar that is used for anti shipping and a common feature with PLAN surface warships, although previous to the refit, it never had one. In that way, it already lacks one crucial radar feature that is found in the 054A. This is actually in paradox because the 051B uses the YJ-12 and needs this radar the most.
How small do I think the supportive radar can be sufficient for the HHQ-9?
Clue is with the new dual back dual band AESA radar spotted on the 075. The first side is an S-band that has a range of 350km. That's in excess of the HHQ-9B's range. The second back is an X-band radar face with a range excess of 100km.
So let us say, you take this radar, and turn that to their fixed four faced equivalent. An integrated mast with four of the X-band radar faces higher pyramid, and the four of the S-band faces below. Think of radars like they are LEGOs, you can take the faces separately, and fixed them into an integrated mast instead.
This set is smaller and cheaper than a fully sized Type 346A or 346B set. While smaller and cheaper, it can still support the HHQ-9 firing, along with an MRSAM that can reach up to 100km, with the latter supported by the X-band radar serving as its tracking radar. The result would not be far off something like this at the top.
Sensors and systems are what makes the ship more expensive these days, not as much as the hull or even the engines.
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Fair enough. But I still don't see why if the PLAN wants to use a downsized Type 346 radar set (coupled with U-VLS and HHQ-9/B) on an ASW/ASuW frigate, it would opt to have it based on the 054 platform (054B). If they want a 40-cell (or even 48 cells) U-VLS equipped ASW ship, why not just use the 052B platform?
Besides, I wasn't referring to Huangpu Shipyard when I said "military shipyard in Guangzhou". There are other huge shipyards in the Greater Bay Area. One of them (which I forgot the name of), actually did repair work for a 052C couple of years back. The same shipyard also did fitting for a Type 901. They can take high end military contract without any problem.
@Tam : I think the PLAN could have both ships:
1. An 054B with A/JK-16 as an low-end ASW platform. Mostly on patrol duties.
2. An improved 052B (052BG) with U-VLS (HHQ-9 and YJ-18 series) and two hangers for Z-20's, as a designate ASW ship of a carrier (or LHD) escort fleet.
Given the unique situation the PLAN is in, it does need low end ships to deal with low end potential foreign militaries (like Vietnam, Philippines, SEA countries). Of course it needs large powerful ships like 055 and 052DL (and the 052E you proposed) to deal with high end opponents like the US, or Japan.
For example, the SEA countries have a number of small frigates ranging from 2000 ton to 4000 ton, and they are getting more of those. These ships are too big for 056, too small for 052 series (and up). Thus, the 054A/B and 056 could form a low end patrolling team from as little as 2-3 ships to more than 10 ship on the forefront. While carrier/LHD fleet which packs much much more punch could be lurking the second line. This would be more better than just building big expensive ships. This is because in the waters around China, a lot of the important work that needs to be done by the PLAN is NOT actually fighting a war.
We Chinese use the word "周旋" to describe this kind of situation: you are not really fighting a full out war, but you are using your military assets as a weight to throw around, play around and wrestle with your opponent. This is where you would need assets that are optimize for this kind of operation. I think the 054 series would be perfect for this. Anything more than a 054 would be a waste of resources and thus a departure from the principles of "周旋".
1. An 054B with A/JK-16 as an low-end ASW platform. Mostly on patrol duties.
2. An improved 052B (052BG) with U-VLS (HHQ-9 and YJ-18 series) and two hangers for Z-20's, as a designate ASW ship of a carrier (or LHD) escort fleet.
Given the unique situation the PLAN is in, it does need low end ships to deal with low end potential foreign militaries (like Vietnam, Philippines, SEA countries). Of course it needs large powerful ships like 055 and 052DL (and the 052E you proposed) to deal with high end opponents like the US, or Japan.
For example, the SEA countries have a number of small frigates ranging from 2000 ton to 4000 ton, and they are getting more of those. These ships are too big for 056, too small for 052 series (and up). Thus, the 054A/B and 056 could form a low end patrolling team from as little as 2-3 ships to more than 10 ship on the forefront. While carrier/LHD fleet which packs much much more punch could be lurking the second line. This would be more better than just building big expensive ships. This is because in the waters around China, a lot of the important work that needs to be done by the PLAN is NOT actually fighting a war.
We Chinese use the word "周旋" to describe this kind of situation: you are not really fighting a full out war, but you are using your military assets as a weight to throw around, play around and wrestle with your opponent. This is where you would need assets that are optimize for this kind of operation. I think the 054 series would be perfect for this. Anything more than a 054 would be a waste of resources and thus a departure from the principles of "周旋".
plawolf
Lieutenant General
SCS and the American stirred up troubles there are now pretty much settled by China’s island bases.
From those bases, 056 and 022s could very effectively counter any misadventure by indigenous forces; while those same bases can accommodate fighters, AWACS as well as AShM/AShBM and SAM batteries and form an unsinkable carrier fleet that can make any direct confrontation cost prohibitive, if not a downright loosing proposition for the USN itself.
The original Obama-Hillary plan was to create tensions by encouraging the likes of Vietnam and the Phillipines to go on a land grabbing frenzy. If China objected and used military force, the USN can sail in and overwhelm the PLAN far from Chinese shores and land based support. That would then give America the perfect pretext to establish its own military bases in the SCS, from which it can cut China’s sea lanes any time it wants.
The likes of Vietnam and the Philippines cannot and will not act without American support, and America cannot risk a direct military confrontation with China without its full naval might present.
As such, there is not issue of anyone opening up a second front against China.
If America wants to pick the fight in the SCS, then that is where China’s primary fleet strengths will also go.
If America wants to pick the fight in the Western Pacific, then it won’t have the naval strength to spare in the South to convince the likes of Vietnam to make a move, as doing so without direct and massive American naval support would just result in the destruction of their entire naval and air forces.
As such, the PLAN does not need a second string patrol fleet beyond the current 056. Even 054As would be wasted in such missions.
The PLAN’s primary focus is able to match the USN in the western Pacific without needing land based air and missile support.
That focus on big fleet competition is at the core of its procurement and design decisions.
It is why the PLAN has so much investment in big ASEA radars (counter jamming and count saturation attack); yet doesn’t cram their ships with as many missiles as easily possible (probably based on the calculated expectation that ships won’t fire that many missiles before they either win or are sunk in a fleet engagement against the USN).
It is also why 056s are form the core of the PLAN surface ASW fleet (second island chain is easily within range of the 056s, and they can be deployed en mass). To allow the PLAN capital ships to focus on AA.
From those bases, 056 and 022s could very effectively counter any misadventure by indigenous forces; while those same bases can accommodate fighters, AWACS as well as AShM/AShBM and SAM batteries and form an unsinkable carrier fleet that can make any direct confrontation cost prohibitive, if not a downright loosing proposition for the USN itself.
The original Obama-Hillary plan was to create tensions by encouraging the likes of Vietnam and the Phillipines to go on a land grabbing frenzy. If China objected and used military force, the USN can sail in and overwhelm the PLAN far from Chinese shores and land based support. That would then give America the perfect pretext to establish its own military bases in the SCS, from which it can cut China’s sea lanes any time it wants.
The likes of Vietnam and the Philippines cannot and will not act without American support, and America cannot risk a direct military confrontation with China without its full naval might present.
As such, there is not issue of anyone opening up a second front against China.
If America wants to pick the fight in the SCS, then that is where China’s primary fleet strengths will also go.
If America wants to pick the fight in the Western Pacific, then it won’t have the naval strength to spare in the South to convince the likes of Vietnam to make a move, as doing so without direct and massive American naval support would just result in the destruction of their entire naval and air forces.
As such, the PLAN does not need a second string patrol fleet beyond the current 056. Even 054As would be wasted in such missions.
The PLAN’s primary focus is able to match the USN in the western Pacific without needing land based air and missile support.
That focus on big fleet competition is at the core of its procurement and design decisions.
It is why the PLAN has so much investment in big ASEA radars (counter jamming and count saturation attack); yet doesn’t cram their ships with as many missiles as easily possible (probably based on the calculated expectation that ships won’t fire that many missiles before they either win or are sunk in a fleet engagement against the USN).
It is also why 056s are form the core of the PLAN surface ASW fleet (second island chain is easily within range of the 056s, and they can be deployed en mass). To allow the PLAN capital ships to focus on AA.
I don't see the 054A as a primarily ASW/ASuW frigate. I see it as a general escort. It certainly is being used as a general escort as you can see with the Gulf of Aden missions. Plawolf has also explained the primary ASW warship of the PLAN is the 056A. The PLAN has moved away from ASuW centric ships --- like during the old days with destroyers that pack 16 antiship missiles --- to ships that are more balanced between AAW, ASW and ASuW.
That can still be a logical possibility. I suspect that warships are not drawn by a central authoritative institute but among the shipbuilders, each of them coming up with a set of proposals and compete to see whose proposal will eventually win. I suspect Jiangnan has its own future frigate proposal just as Hudong Zhonghua does.
A shipyard doing repair work may not necessarily mean they can build those ships. It may not have the necessary machine tools, like presses; the skilled labor to operate them, or weld those modules which requires good old manual welding skills. The real builders of the ships are all those machine shops that surround the dry docks that are building and machining the modules for these ships. The dry dock or the shed is only the final assembly and welding.
Once again, I see the A/JK-16 as an impediment for developing future ASW ASROC weapons. The VLS means the weapon has to fit in it, and there is much greater potential with the U-VLS to create ASROCs with greater range and yield.
I think "low end" is not what the general multirole frigate is. The frigate is mid end. For ASW ships, you need lots of small ships, and that's the role of the 056A. Succeeding the 056A is a separate issue. For that I think the PLAN should take a new look at the trimaran frigate that was shown a few years ago. A trimaran allows a small ship to have a large double helo deck.
Packs of 056, 056A and 022 should be the ones to do that. The 4000 to 5000 ton frigate should be regarded as a capital ship escort, capital ships like the 071, 075, the 052C/D destroyers, the 055 and the carriers.
The frigate should be both the low end, the staple, and the main meat and the workhorse of the blue water fleet. Note I said blue water, not brown water. The frigate should have the range, numbers and expendability to make up the masses for the blue water fleet, escort all the blue water capital ships larger than them, and do what all blue water navy ships are expected to do. Its not their job to push around the navies of the SEA (that's the Chinese Coast Guard's job).
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
Too much talk no updates