054/A FFG Thread II
- Thread starter tphuang
- Start date
Jura The idiot
General
now noticed the tweet
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La cérémonie de découpe de la première tôle de deux frégate Type 054A/P pour la marine pakistanaise a eu lieu début Novembre à Shanghai, au chantier naval Hudong Zhonghua.
Translated from French by
The cutting ceremony of the first sheet of two frigate Type 054A / P for the Pakistan Navy took place at the beginning of November in Shanghai, at the Hudong Zhonghua Shipyard.
·
La cérémonie de découpe de la première tôle de deux frégate Type 054A/P pour la marine pakistanaise a eu lieu début Novembre à Shanghai, au chantier naval Hudong Zhonghua.
Translated from French by
The cutting ceremony of the first sheet of two frigate Type 054A / P for the Pakistan Navy took place at the beginning of November in Shanghai, at the Hudong Zhonghua Shipyard.
Lethe
Captain
Surely the Agosta 70 SSKs will be replaced by the new 039-based SSKs.
As for DDGs, they could work with the right price and refit, but it is certainly not something PN should rush into. I expect that 052B or 051C would be the types under consideration.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
I think the PN would get far more value from a load of second hand 022s than they would from used DDGs.
Short of 052Cs, used DDGs, even refitted, won’t bring much to the table beyond the capabilities the 054A/P will already have, with the principle difference being endurance, and maybe a slightly larger missile load. Endurance and a bigger missile load are hardly critically important factors for the PN in the foreseeable future, so how would such big expensive ships justify their cost?
Getting used 052Cs, or even 051Cs would be a game changer for the PN, but those ships would also represent a lot of eggs in one basket, and serious questions must be asked about whether the PN would have the support fleet needed to protect and support those high value assets in the face of determined Indian attacks.
On the financial side, China could certainly help Pakistan out by entering into a purchase lease agreement, whereby the PN leases the ships over, say a 10 year period, with an option to purchase at the end of that 10 years for a nominal fee.
But that still leaves the PN awfully top heave with 2 Sino-Aegis DDGs supported by only 4 medium and 4 light FFGs.
And there is stills the question of what precise mission such a task group is meant to perform in a combat scenario, because as formidable as such a fleet would be, it is hardly indestructible, and would be at a decided disadvantage against a numerically superior IN fleet with carrier support in blue water engagements.
For coastal defence scenarios where the PN fleet can rely on land based friendly fighter support, what benefit would such a heavy investment in DDGs bring to justify the costs, compared to say, a purchase of long range HQ9 SAM batteries from China for a fraction of the cost to bring long range SAM coverage to coastal and inland areas?
Short of 052Cs, used DDGs, even refitted, won’t bring much to the table beyond the capabilities the 054A/P will already have, with the principle difference being endurance, and maybe a slightly larger missile load. Endurance and a bigger missile load are hardly critically important factors for the PN in the foreseeable future, so how would such big expensive ships justify their cost?
Getting used 052Cs, or even 051Cs would be a game changer for the PN, but those ships would also represent a lot of eggs in one basket, and serious questions must be asked about whether the PN would have the support fleet needed to protect and support those high value assets in the face of determined Indian attacks.
On the financial side, China could certainly help Pakistan out by entering into a purchase lease agreement, whereby the PN leases the ships over, say a 10 year period, with an option to purchase at the end of that 10 years for a nominal fee.
But that still leaves the PN awfully top heave with 2 Sino-Aegis DDGs supported by only 4 medium and 4 light FFGs.
And there is stills the question of what precise mission such a task group is meant to perform in a combat scenario, because as formidable as such a fleet would be, it is hardly indestructible, and would be at a decided disadvantage against a numerically superior IN fleet with carrier support in blue water engagements.
For coastal defence scenarios where the PN fleet can rely on land based friendly fighter support, what benefit would such a heavy investment in DDGs bring to justify the costs, compared to say, a purchase of long range HQ9 SAM batteries from China for a fraction of the cost to bring long range SAM coverage to coastal and inland areas?
williamhou
Junior Member
For PN, A large pack of Type 22s under air cover or AIP SSKs will give the potential opponent more headache than 2 used non-Aegis like DDGs.
Since PLAN no longer have much use of their 83 Type 22s after the mass commissioning of 056s, with rumours some are seen sitting idle on land, there is a good chance these stealthy catamarans are up for grabs. The oldest of these is only 15 years old.
Since PLAN no longer have much use of their 83 Type 22s after the mass commissioning of 056s, with rumours some are seen sitting idle on land, there is a good chance these stealthy catamarans are up for grabs. The oldest of these is only 15 years old.
timepass
Brigadier
Nope, IMO they will use them in coastal defense plus crew training...
Might be or may be SOUVs...
timepass
Brigadier
PN studied them earlier & rejected in favor of Azmat class FACs (1st 2 made in China)...
timepass
Brigadier
Since decades PN remain the most neglected of 3 forces & prime task was to somehow defend the littoral waters, but in recent years the doctrine has changed & with latest acquisitions (FFGS/SSKs/COVs/OPVs/MPAs) PN is now looking to protect SLOC/EEZ.
Further, thanks to latest advancement in extending the range & accuracy of local LRCMs, now PN looking for the platforms from where they can keep Indians away not to forget PN going to have very formidable SSK fleet.
Lethe
Captain
Seems crazy to me. It's not like PN will be short on submarines once the 039 contract is complete. Why risk Indian Navy-style stories of sailors drowning in decrepit submarines older than their fathers?
I think there would be complications with Russia in transferring the Sovs. Those could probably be overcome with sufficient negotiation, but when the case for PN acquiring old DDGs is marginal in the first place, I can't imagine that it would be worth the hassle.
Unless PLAN is so dissatisfied with the MLU upgrade of the first two Sovs that they are balking at going through the process with the next pair and basically offering them to PN for free...
Azmat class could have been PRC's successor to the Type 022, or at least one of the alternatives post 022. Its lies somewhere between FAC and Corvette, but eventually PLAN choose the design that would become the Type 056.
There is some logic in going away from the housed design of the missile launchers of the 022 to an more open design, and that it allows Pakistan to install ASMs of their own design.
As for the destroyers, I would think that only the stripped down 052B is available, but the others are either off limits for one reason or another.
I believe there is a no third party clause to all the Russian stuff the PLAN has bought that would prevent them from selling any thing of Russian origin to another third party, specifically Pakistan in mind, in order for the Russians not to offend the Indians. For this reason, all four Sovs are off the table, but you should not want them anyway, with their temperamental steam turbines and high crew count that makes them less than economical to operate. 054A design is way better for the buck. This also means the two 051C are off the table because these ships contain Russian equipment such as the RIF-M air defense complex, as well as radars and such: it still uses the Russian sourced Mineral ME and Fregat MAE radars instead of their Chinese copies. But you should not want them too, as they are also steam powered headaches.
The 051B is also not a good idea, its getting too old and is another steamer. Which brings me to the second reason and that is many equipment are considered state or national security secrets and are not approved for export. For a used ship, you have to go through the expense of stripping out these forbidden equipment. One of those would be the Type 382 radar, which is one reason the 054A/P won't get this but the export approved SR2410C (on top of this the SR2410C is much newer and technically superior). It is also likely the Type 346 "Red Aegis" also falls into this, so you can forget about the 052C or 052D.
That leaves you with the two stripped 052B, and potentially, the two stripped 054. Since they are also stripped for a prior scheduled midlife update, you don't have to worry about that, although part of that cost may be transferred to the potential customer instead. But there is a question whether its worth the cost instead of a brand new 054A/P. Its a very similar ship but has gas turbines instead and allows you to put more antiship missiles. We would expect that any modernized, custom for export 052B and 054 would have the SR2410C radar and provisions for the Babur antiship missiles or any of the export Chinese antiship missiles, specifically the export version of the YJ-12 (CM-302?). The problem of the 052B is that their gas turbines are Ukrainian DN-80, and you would need to have some relationship with Ukraine for their maintenance. These are not the best engines for reliability since the Guangzhou had engine trouble during her Gulf of Aden patrol mission, and guess what after that, the 052B was never used for Gulf of Aden patrol missions ever since. Just remember the 051B was only used once, the 051C and the Sovs were never used for those escort missions which is telling what the PLAN now thinks of their steamers for the use of such actions, and why you should not be buying them.
If it comes down to it, the 054A/P remains the best choice as it amounts to the least hassle, the most proven, and the best bang for the buck. Of the four used ships, I might think the two 054 (non A) would be the best option. The SR2410C gives you an option comparable to the Thales SMART-S Mk 2 or the Type 997 Artisan 3D radar.
In the future, once PLAN is looking to retire the 054A for some new frigate design, they should be good to be scooped up. I may also consider used 056 in the future. The ships of both classes that lack the VDS or TAS might have a potential shorter stay life with the PLAN than those that have these.
There is some logic in going away from the housed design of the missile launchers of the 022 to an more open design, and that it allows Pakistan to install ASMs of their own design.
As for the destroyers, I would think that only the stripped down 052B is available, but the others are either off limits for one reason or another.
I believe there is a no third party clause to all the Russian stuff the PLAN has bought that would prevent them from selling any thing of Russian origin to another third party, specifically Pakistan in mind, in order for the Russians not to offend the Indians. For this reason, all four Sovs are off the table, but you should not want them anyway, with their temperamental steam turbines and high crew count that makes them less than economical to operate. 054A design is way better for the buck. This also means the two 051C are off the table because these ships contain Russian equipment such as the RIF-M air defense complex, as well as radars and such: it still uses the Russian sourced Mineral ME and Fregat MAE radars instead of their Chinese copies. But you should not want them too, as they are also steam powered headaches.
The 051B is also not a good idea, its getting too old and is another steamer. Which brings me to the second reason and that is many equipment are considered state or national security secrets and are not approved for export. For a used ship, you have to go through the expense of stripping out these forbidden equipment. One of those would be the Type 382 radar, which is one reason the 054A/P won't get this but the export approved SR2410C (on top of this the SR2410C is much newer and technically superior). It is also likely the Type 346 "Red Aegis" also falls into this, so you can forget about the 052C or 052D.
That leaves you with the two stripped 052B, and potentially, the two stripped 054. Since they are also stripped for a prior scheduled midlife update, you don't have to worry about that, although part of that cost may be transferred to the potential customer instead. But there is a question whether its worth the cost instead of a brand new 054A/P. Its a very similar ship but has gas turbines instead and allows you to put more antiship missiles. We would expect that any modernized, custom for export 052B and 054 would have the SR2410C radar and provisions for the Babur antiship missiles or any of the export Chinese antiship missiles, specifically the export version of the YJ-12 (CM-302?). The problem of the 052B is that their gas turbines are Ukrainian DN-80, and you would need to have some relationship with Ukraine for their maintenance. These are not the best engines for reliability since the Guangzhou had engine trouble during her Gulf of Aden patrol mission, and guess what after that, the 052B was never used for Gulf of Aden patrol missions ever since. Just remember the 051B was only used once, the 051C and the Sovs were never used for those escort missions which is telling what the PLAN now thinks of their steamers for the use of such actions, and why you should not be buying them.
If it comes down to it, the 054A/P remains the best choice as it amounts to the least hassle, the most proven, and the best bang for the buck. Of the four used ships, I might think the two 054 (non A) would be the best option. The SR2410C gives you an option comparable to the Thales SMART-S Mk 2 or the Type 997 Artisan 3D radar.
In the future, once PLAN is looking to retire the 054A for some new frigate design, they should be good to be scooped up. I may also consider used 056 in the future. The ships of both classes that lack the VDS or TAS might have a potential shorter stay life with the PLAN than those that have these.
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