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Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Hey, no channel has been made for naval guns so I post my question here: do we have any proof that the H/PJ-45 130mm gun has a rate of fire of 40-45 rds/min? The italians only have 32 with the 127mm LW, the russians achieve 30 with their 130mm A-192. The Chinese gun is much bigger and heavier than it's italian and russian equivalents, but it doesn't explain the 10rds per minutes more.

Do we even have a video of this thing firing?

It was assumed that the gun was copied from the Russian AK-130, which had two guns and the combined maximum rate of fire is around 90 rounds per minute. So its not bigger or heavier than its Russian equivalent, nor it is faster. It is simply divided by two from the AK-130.

If the gun is a truly domestic and non copy design, then it is something else.
 

Tetrach

Junior Member
Registered Member
Are anti-ship missiles able to execute manoeuvers to dodge enemy Anti-air missiles?

What do you think of the speed versus Steath dilemma on the topic of AsHm?
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Are anti-ship missiles able to execute manoeuvers to dodge enemy Anti-air missiles?

Yes.

What do you think of the speed versus Steath dilemma on the topic of AsHm?

Speed and stealth to some degree are complementary. The faster the missile has to fly, the finer its shape has to be, and that means sharper angles. Something like a DF-17 will likely have lower head on RCS than a subsonic CJ-10 which has a more blunt and rounder shape around the nose.

Speed and stealth --- if you are referring to as sea skimming subsonics --- are not exclusive to each other. The reason why the USN didn't have a supersonic anti-ship missile and concentrated on subsonics, isn't because of a stroke of tactical genius, but is because of politics and budget cutting. The USN was developing Sea Dragon, which was an antiship supersonic missile. That was cancelled because the end of the Cold War kind of meant they were redundant. Now it seemed the project may have been revived in secret but Chinese hackers manage to discover it.

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The USN is also considering using the SM-6 as a quasi antiship missile. SAMs can be programmed to hit ships. Like an aircraft, a ship is after all, something that is reflecting radar for the seeker to home in. Beyond that, they're looking at a "joint" missile that can be used as both anti-ship and anti-air. This is likely to be supersonic. This also gives me the idea of the potential the HHQ-9 can be turned into a quasi antiship missile. Its warhead size is nearly that of a YJ-83.

While the Russians are best known for their supersonic antiship missiles, they also have subsonics. The best example is the Kh-35 Uran, which has an awesome code name for it --- Switchblade. That's comparable to the USN Harpoon, European Exocet and the Chinese YJ-83.

Then we get to the Chinese, who has supersonics like the Moskit, the YJ-12 and the YJ-18, in addition to ASBMs which we will put in the hypersonic range But they still have a ton of subsonics, perhaps more in fact. J-15s launch the YJ-83, Z-9s can launch the YJ-9. Every Type 054A frigate, with 30 of them, can launch 8 YJ-83. There are over 60 to 80 Type 022 FAC, each with eight YJ-83. Over sixty Type 056 and 056A is capable of launching four YJ-83 each. There are also the six Type 052C that carries eight YJ-62 each. A YJ-62 is a subsonic antiship missile that is derived from a land based cruise missile, and its very similar to the DH-10 or CJ-10. In other words, this is like the Chinese Tomahawk antiship missile (TASM).

I don't think it would be hard for China to come up with missiles with greater stealth. JASSM like missiles were already shown at Zhuhai and the LRASM was derived from the JASSM. I can see at least three kinds that may pop up. The first is a possible YJ-83 replacement for smaller ships and would use the same slanted launcher. The second is something that can be launched from the U-VLS. The third is air launched including types that can be launched from helicopter or drone. If they are planning to use GJ-11 as an attack drone, you bet they're going to use stealthy air to surface weapons with it.

Lastly the YJ-18 is by itself a hybrid of a subsonic sea skimmer and the supersonic missile. In transit, this is a subsonic sea skimmer flying low to avoid detection, then as it approaches its target, it fires its rocket based second stage, which completes its final and terminal stage of flight. The problem of intercepting this missile is that it's supersonic at a very low sea skimming height, and it conducts evasive maneuvers on top of that. This isn't like the ramjet powered supersonic that requires a certain altitude to cruise, making it detectable on its cruising stage and puts a limit to the minimum altitude at the final or terminal stage of flight. None of the supersonic target drones used in the West has this flight profile; the Coyote is a ramjet that can be used to mimic the flight characteristics of the Oniks, Moskit, Kh-31 or YJ-91, and the YJ-12, but not the YJ-18 or its Russian counterpart, the 3M-54.
 

Tetrach

Junior Member
Registered Member
As always Tam, an excellent answer!

I think that one major problem that may have stopped western navies from operating supersonic missiles is the size of their carrier-based fighters which should be a serious disadvantage. Small supersonic missiles exist but they have a discouraging short range, so you're forced to either develop a subsonic missile or a larger supersonic missile. Later solution seems impossible when you look at the size and weapon-carrying capability of a Rafale-M or F/A-18 or F-35 (fair enough, even a J-15 or Su-33 probably can't take a YJ-12). As such, stealth is the only solution to allow your subsonic missile to penetrate the enemy air defence.

Even VLS launched, it's impossible for a mk-41 (even less for a sylver) to fire a missile similar in length as a 3M-54t (8.9m when the Mk-41 Strike launcher is 7.7m long) or in diameter like the YJ-18.

I've never heard of a Chinese LRASM version tbh. It might make sense for them to adopt one tho.

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Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
As always Tam, an excellent answer!

I think that one major problem that may have stopped western navies from operating supersonic missiles is the size of their carrier-based fighters which should be a serious disadvantage. Small supersonic missiles exist but they have a discouraging short range, so you're forced to either develop a subsonic missile or a larger supersonic missile. Later solution seems impossible when you look at the size and weapon-carrying capability of a Rafale-M or F/A-18 or F-35 (fair enough, even a J-15 or Su-33 probably can't take a YJ-12). As such, stealth is the only solution to allow your subsonic missile to penetrate the enemy air defence.

Even VLS launched, it's impossible for a mk-41 (even less for a sylver) to fire a missile similar in length as a 3M-54t (8.9m when the Mk-41 Strike launcher is 7.7m long) or in diameter like the YJ-18.

I've never heard of a Chinese LRASM version tbh. It might make sense for them to adopt one tho.

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Yes. Mk. 41 placed a limit to missile sizes in Western ships. It wasn't like that before.

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The USN had its own supersonic ramjet missile before, like its own Oniks or Brahmos. It didn't have the range like modern ramjets due to the fuel technology ain't as advanced then, but you get the idea. This missile scored the first surface to air kill from a naval warship and the first surface to surface hit from a naval warship It is said to be able to go ship to ship. Can you imagine a MiG-21 being shot down by something like a Brahmos? That's what it did.

It won't fit on a Mk. 41 however.

The entire stock of them were turned into target drones, and it was said that AEGIS and Standards had issues dealing with it. The stock of them ran out however before those issues were dealt with in satisfaction resulting in the USN scrambling for alternative target drone programs.

The best supersonic missile you can fit on a Mk. 41 is the SM-6. This is big and heavy enough that even for a SAM, it will deal substantial damage to a warship. But being rocket powered, point A to point B at low altitude with high atmospheric drag would have reduced its range. This attack mode would be be better used for targets at closer range. At farther ranges the missile will have to take a more upward ballistic path towards the upper atmosphere and dive down to the target, like a mini ASBM. It will make it easy to detect but at the speeds it will fly, it may still be hard to intercept.

Likewise the HHQ-9 has the potential to operate in the same manner.

The problem of SAMs being used as an antiship missile is that their warheads are set for proximity explosions with proximity fuses. A dedicated supersonic ASM has a semi-AP warhead that is shaped like a artillery shell inside a missile. The warhead has a tapered point. A good example of this is on the last Zhuhai show where a company showed its own YJ-12 competitor, and it display had a cutaway model of it that showed a tapered warhead. This is one advantage a supersonic missile has over a subsonic missile is that the supersonic missile can achieve greater penetration and achieve some kinetic damage before it explodes inside its target. A subsonic missile may not achieve the same level of penetration against an armored or thick ship hull.

Note however that smaller subsonic antiship missiles still have their place and maybe having a resurgence because they are more ideal with smaller ship vs. smaller ship confrontations. You don't need a big missile to sink a small ship, and there is always this chance that a supersonic missile is going to miss or overshot a small ship that does not show up in the radar well because of sea clutter and stealthy ship designs with so many small new naval combatants designed with stealthy features. This is not to mention these ships still have their own air defenses and other protective systems. So its better to have large numbers of small missiles to give you more chances.

Why would you think this upgrade to this Russian corvette went from big to small missiles?

D_oWSpnXoAAnxJE.jpg

This comes along because there is growing surge for corvettes and frigates around the world and the chances for one small ship to face another small ship has become the most likely of all naval confrontations. Because of sea clutter and stealthy ship designs, missiles dealing with such situations may also end hp having dual seekers with IR imaging, like the NSM.

The bottom line is that I don't believe that there should be a standardized, one shot fills all, silver bullet antiship missile to put all your eggs on.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
JASSM like missiles were already shown at Zhuhai and the LRASM was derived from the JASSM.
Which missiles were these? There was that Kuang-Chi "missile", but that was an AGM-158 mockup was just a prop to advertise stealth coatings the company develops. Falsely advertising, I might add, as there's no way an American missile maker would use RAM coatings from a Chinese company.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Which missiles were these? There was that Kuang-Chi "missile", but that was an AGM-158 mockup was just a prop to advertise stealth coatings the company develops. Falsely advertising, I might add, as there's no way an American missile maker would use RAM coatings from a Chinese company.

I remember seeing them exhibited under drones. They are much smaller than JASSM but the general design and intent were there. Another company was showing target drones that had a stealthy profile,
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
Stupid Question, but this is "Ask Anything" thread, right?
This has kind of puzzled me for quite some time. The barracks ship for the carrier has recreation facilities on the top, a running track and basketball court.
1. Anyone familiar with how shifts work in the Navy? If the crew is typically ~2500, how many people would be on "free time" to use those facilities at a given time?
2. I've never been on a cruise ship before, but having an outdoor court in a coastal area on a boat, seems like it would be hard to play from ship movement and wind. I would imagine that balls being lost overboard would be a problem. Anyone would have an idea? (Maybe no one ever plays)
 
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