Hong-Kong Protests

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
All this talk of loyalty is misguided. The People's Republic of China is not some two-bit dictatorship that requires every citizen to swear undying loyalty to the regime. The only thing the PRC requires of its citizens is that they follow the laws of the nation. You don't even need to be a productive citizen if you don't want to be, though the state is not going to feed you.

Beijing is not going to modify their plans for HK based on the presence or absence of pro-China rallies, that is simply nonsense. There is also no question of whether HK "deserves" intervention. Any intervention will be done for the strategic good of the entire nation, including HK, regardless of whether HK deserves it or not.

Furthermore, I believe HK citizens, regardless of their political affiliation, need to start contemplating the worst-case scenario: that this state of unrest will become the new normal.


Every ignorant foreigner is expecting the HK riots to spread to China and become something bigger.


Every year, Chinese make over 130 million overseas trips.

If China was a totalitarian hellhole, these people would refuse to go back. Yet they pretty much all return.

In fact, more and more Chinese want to go back to the motherland for opportunities while the ones overseas try to create an overseas nexus for Chinese influence.

If China was a shithole, why would these ethnic Chinese want to help China?


All this suggests that China is not defined by the CCP, but instead by its 5000 years of survival.
 
the article describes like balance between on one side trying to achieve a trade deal with China, and on the other side introducing anti-China bills for instance Oct 16, 2019
China condemns U.S. House approval of bill on Hong Kong
Xinhua| 2019-10-16 10:44:45
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basically a summary of what's happened while I slept;

related Glob. Times story from right before the vote:
US moves to lend support as demonstrations lose steam
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the US Senate will be next
:
Donald Trump tries to outflank Congress as pressure grows on China
  • The vice-president is set to give a harsh speech as lawmakers press for stronger action to protect Hong Kong protests
follow the link
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if interested

for several days I had been trying to ignore that alleged murderer story (I recall skimming over several related articles), because I thought they'd find a way how to either keep him locked or send to Taiwan, but none of it happened!? now
Hong Kong murder suspect at centre of extradition bill crisis begs for public forgiveness upon release from jail
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ends like this
:
October 23

Hong Kong government rejects Taiwan’s “totally unacceptable” offer to send officials to the city to take back the murder suspect. Chan is released from Pik Uk Correctional Institution. His prison term was reduced by a third for good behaviour, and 13 months of detention before his sentencing was considered as time served.

now wait (related to 7 minutes ago)
"The development came six hours after the murder suspect, Chan Tong-kai, whose case sparked the introduction of the bill, was
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as he finished his sentence on money-laundering charges."
Hong Kong’s ‘dead’ extradition bill finally buried as government formally withdraws it
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I mean is this a coincidence, an irony, a message I can't get, ...?
 
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Nutrient

Junior Member
Registered Member
Ohhhhh I'm the loser with all the likes on my comments and you're the winner

Yes, I am winning. Because I am more correct on the essential point than you.

The essential point is that Beijing is doing more or less what I want.

Beijing is not doing what you want. The central government is not being emotional and violent, and is not falling into the protesters' trap.

Thus I am winning, and your fantasies of a violent Beijing intervention are losing.


[blah, blah, blah]

Trying to distract me? Typical loser's strategy.
 

Nutrient

Junior Member
Registered Member
Beijing is not going to modify their plans for HK based on the presence or absence of pro-China rallies, that is simply nonsense. There is also no question of whether HK "deserves" intervention. Any intervention will be done for the strategic good of the entire nation, including HK, regardless of whether HK deserves it or not.

Why change Beijing's strategy on Hong Kong when it's working? As far as I'm concerned, the point of a pro-Beijing demonstration is to show support for the central government.
 
I think the first part of what you said is spot on (confusing actual freedom and openness), but I don't think the "not being open the other way around" is really the case.

However, to the first point, a good example is the court system, where people keep touting "rule of law" and judicial transparency as hallmarks of "freedom". The idea is that if there is adherence to rules, then the authorities cannot weaponize it against the people (basically one of the tenets of the protests). However, anyone with even half a critical brain cell would know this is a joke.

In Canada, look no further than Meng Wenzhou, US essentially created sanctions (not even applicable to Canada) and requested extradition and prompted her arrest. There is the argument, "Well, she gets to live in a $15 million mansion, that's no kind of detention", or "She is out on bail, proof that the system works", but these are non-sequiturs, because it assumes that the initial arrest was not prompted by politics in the first place. Also, really, the fact that her wealth can buy her all those special privileges really only makes more of a mockery of the system, any poor person with a crap lawyer would just rot in jail for who knows how long?

It goes even further than this, wealthy Paul Singer can weaponize the US court system to bring an entire country to it's knees (Argentina), and misery to its denizens. Corporations can bring endless lawsuits/legal threats to common people over stupid things like MP3 sharing. All of this is "legal", but who thinks it is "just"? So really, is injustice not oppression?

To your final point, Western self-righteousness is just a political tool. It is essentially just the modern replacement for Christianity in neo-colonialist doctrine. Instead of "Gospel and Heaven", it is "Democracy and Human Rights". Again, it is built on a logical fallacy, that the cushy life we have in Western countries is because of their respect for these principles. Wrong, it is because Western countries are wealthy countries. Even if you come to to these countries with "nothing" (as many immigrant success stories begin), there is a capital base or education base that exists for you to exploit that simply does not exist in a poor country. Politics has nothing to do with it.

I think for human rights to be exploited in this way is especially sad. Western politicians love to make the case that democracy is a human right. Honestly, if you have nothing to eat, no clean water to drink, no roof over your head, I don't think you care who you can vote for. If you cannot live, then there are no human rights. Western politicians exploit people's basic ignorance of the world outside their comfort zone to push this agenda. PRC is so vilified, read any comment on a news story, and its filled with near-racist invective. Yet how many of these people have actually been to China? or how many just dismiss it as "a communist hellhole"? If they have been to China, how many have been out of the cities and into the countryside? It's still so poor, a family friend who does charity work showed me pictures of an orphan collect branches to burn for heating. Simply collapsing the government won't help these people, it certainly did not help the people of Libya.

Relating back to HK, it's so obvious to see the exploitation. Western politicians constantly egging on the rioters. Calling them "non-violent" (Alexandra Oscaio Cortez tweet:
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) only further encouraging this destruction. They exploit the ignorance and naivete of youth to push their own agenda. Meanwhile the entire city suffers. Even the peaceful people who legitimately want to preserve autonomy under 1C2S suffers (probably these people suffer the most). Media constantly pushing the narrative that the central government is "suffocating" HK, they are the worst. They have actually literally done nothing (somewhat to the consternation of their supporters in the city). Honestly, even if there is no active American agitation through intelligence agencies (which I don't believe, at the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist), the media did the job for them.

When it comes to Western politicians especially lower level ones like Alexandra Ocasio Cortez talking about HK there is always the question of whether they are fully aware of what is happening in HK or whether they only know of what is covered by the Western press, which as we all know have been mischaracterizing the riots as "peaceful protests" that are vaguely "pro-democracy". They are much more likely to be just going along with their domestic political winds and leveraging whatever foreign incident for their own unrelated political purposes.

The higher level politicians such as the three Senators Ted Cruz, Josh Hawley, and Rick Scott who actually visited HK and continue to turn a blind eye to the violent rioting and the prejudice driving it, are much more likely to be fully aware of the actual situation and be active participants or proponents of exacerbating or even sponsoring the violence and other anti-government destabilization in HK and China. This is on top of going along with their domestic political winds and using foreign incidents for their own political purposes which lower level politicians do.

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broadsword

Brigadier
When it comes to Western politicians especially lower level ones like Alexandra Ocasio Cortez talking about HK there is always the question of whether they are fully aware of what is happening in HK or whether they only know of what is covered by the Western press, which as we all know have been mischaracterizing the riots as "peaceful protests" that are vaguely "pro-democracy".

I am sure Shaq is oblivious. He is not even a politician, but just a nut hugger shouting "freedom" in the echo chamber.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Yes, I am winning. Because I am more correct on the essential point than you.

The essential point is that Beijing is doing more or less what I want.

Beijing is not doing what you want. The central government is not being emotional and violent, and is not falling into the protesters' trap.

Thus I am winning, and your fantasies of a violent Beijing intervention are losing.
You sound like a Trump lackey fantasizing about winning LOL

Beijing's not talking about some stupid water deprivation. I've said several times that Beijing no doubt has a plan that's tactically better than mine, (though cruel to the patriots in Hong Kong) but I don't know what it is. You don't either. Neither of us know Beijing's plan, so how can you be correct? Right now the only thing it looks like they are doing is nothing, and what their actual plan is is not our conversation. I would never have a conversation about this because all types of hypothesis are fine in the current absence of information. This is actually your loser strategy of trying to "win" by distracting this conversation away from what it is, reiterated below:

Trying to distract me? Typical loser's strategy.
Your strategy, as a loser, of trying to pretend that this conversation isn't made of these 2 core points:

1. You said Beijing should deprive Hong Kong of water in case of a secession. There is no secession and there is no talk about water deprivation. You made it up, it's stupid, no one backs it, and the situation is still totally irrelevant. You lose.

2. You said that Chinese patriots in Hong Kong don't deserve Beijing's consideration because they have not protested en masse, which is your theory on why Beijing has not intervened to protect them. It was shown that you have this sentiment because you were ignorant of the current events and did not even know that they already have done what you accused them of not doing... yet Beijing has still not intervened. Thus, your theory is not only ill-informed, but impossible to be correct since it does not even match known facts. You lose again.


There are no other relevant points to the conversation between us. You're clearly just still talking because you can't face the shame of being destroyed so you think that continuing to run your mouth or moving to goal post will save face. I'm not that easy to deal with; I will not let you invent conversational points to "win." I shove your mistakes right back in your face again and again.
 
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Nutrient

Junior Member
Registered Member
You sound like a Trump lackey fantasizing about winning LOL

No, I sound like someone who advocates the correct policy on Hong Kong -- the same policy that Beijing appears to be following.

You advocate an emotional and violent policy, a policy of doing much of what the protesters want -- which Beijing is emphatically NOT pursuing.

I am not falling into the rioters' trap, but you are.

Thus I am winnng and you are losing. Your voluminous verbiage is just you trying to hide the fact that you (and the rioters) are losing badly.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
No, I sound like someone who advocates the correct policy on Hong Kong -- the same policy that Beijing appears to be following.

You advocate an emotional and violent policy, a policy of doing much of what the protesters want -- which Beijing is emphatically NOT pursuing.
What are you, short-circuiting? I've already told you that I see through this crap of trying to create a conversation topic that was never in contention and then pretending to win that. That means the jig is up. Try another trick if you can learn more than one. Don't stand there like a 90's computer repeatedly crashing through a loop because it doesn't know what to do now. I don't like to see this low level performance from someone who is pro-Beijing.

What policy is that? Doing nothing? Water deprivation for an imaginary scenario that we are not moving towards? You're advocating for a secession that isn't even close to happening and getting wrong all the relevant facts to what's actually happening. Describe this secret policy which is not even what this conversation is about.
I am not falling into the rioters' trap, but you are.
Yeah, you're calling for a policy that attacks every person in Hong Kong patriots and terrorists all the same and you think you're not falling into the rioter's trap. You've really showing everyone that stupid people don't know they're stupid. You need to check the amount of support on their comments to know if they're making sense.
Thus I am winnng and you are losing. Your voluminous verbiage is just you trying to hide the fact that you (and the rioters) are losing badly.
Yeah, just repeating that isn't going to make it happen. That's Donald Trump style repeating a lie so often stupid people think it may be true. You cannot rebut either point, which I will quote from my last post:

1. You said Beijing should deprive Hong Kong of water in case of a secession. There is no secession and there is no talk about water deprivation. You made it up, it's stupid, no one backs it, and the situation is still totally irrelevant. You lose.

2. You said that Chinese patriots in Hong Kong don't deserve Beijing's consideration because they have not protested en masse, which is your theory on why Beijing has not intervened to protect them. It was shown that you have this sentiment because you were ignorant of the current events and did not even know that they already have done what you accused them of not doing... yet Beijing has still not intervened. Thus, your theory is not only ill-informed, but impossible to be correct since it does not even match known facts. You lose again.

Let me guess: your "rebuttal" is gonna be, "I'm winning; you're losing." LOL
 
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SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
A very big thank you to PanAsian, Kyli and Shaolin for your help re Mr Shou (or Lord Ho Ho as I call him).

Now for Moderation
I really do not want to read posts calling for collective and punitive punishment against the entire city and populous of Hong Kong. The average Hong Konger feels as Chinese as any other and does not support the behavior of the rioters.
Calls attempting to incite hatred and violence against ordinary Hong Kong residents will not be tolerated. All such posts must stop now.
 
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