Hong-Kong Protests

drowingfish

Junior Member
Registered Member
at this point i think the public have already made up their mind with regards to the protests. if someone is still okay with the violence and vandalism (i think they are in the minority), there is probably not much the protesters could do that would dissuade that support. i would also not assign to much rationality to what the protesters do, perhaps it is wise to not rock the boat before the election, and perhaps some of the protesters do believe that, but as a group they are not able to coordinate that.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
at this point i think the public have already made up their mind with regards to the protests. if someone is still okay with the violence and vandalism (i think they are in the minority), there is probably not much the protesters could do that would dissuade that support. i would also not assign to much rationality to what the protesters do, perhaps it is wise to not rock the boat before the election, and perhaps some of the protesters do believe that, but as a group they are not able to coordinate that.
We have seen this before in Donald Trump supporters. He will have their vote no matter what he does. He can talk about dating his daughter, grabbing women's vaginas, make up fake weather reports, alienate America's allies, destroy America's trade ties, put farmers on welfare, plunge the economy into imminent recession, be caught in multiple impeachable corruption scandals, or just go on public television spewing all manner of racist, stupid, ignorant things, but he will not lose is voter base for his vileness or incompetence as long as he represents an aggressive and unapologetic white man.

This loss of rationalism is commonly caused by desperation. People lose their morals and resort to primal instinct when they feel that they are losing their battle and cannot rationalize any way to turn the tides. It is the tactical equivalent of panicking. When it comes to Trump, his voters feel that America is losing its power in the world and the white man is losing is control over the USA and they can't reverse it, so that desperate instinct tells them to follow the aggressive white alpha male image that they want the United States to have in the world, even if it will only hasten America's decline. In the Hong Kong situation, Western nations are seeing China's miraculous success over their economic models and desperate to show that their capitalism and democracy are superior. Since this is unsupported by facts, their desperation drives them to cling to any allies they can find, even if those allies are incompetent and have broken every other moral code. So now, they find themselves bending over backwards to try to justify the indefensible acts of the rioters because they are willing allies and the desperate are of the mentality that they cannot afford to lose any allies no matter how terrible. It is reflected in real life where people going through low points of their lives are likely to enter into bad relationships with questionable people who their morals would have steered them clear of had they been in a mentally healthy state. I think if China were much weaker and of no threat to anyone, the West would have condemned the violence because they would be confident enough in their position of superiority over China that they would reject alliances, media or other, with people who are clearly terrorists.

In summary, it's all good. If the Western nations aren't resorting to dirty tactics out of desperation, then China doesn't have them on the run.
 
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Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
Quieting down prob due to HK holding elections in a few weeks, don’t want get too extreme to lose public supports rocking the boat for some politicans. Also Taiwan presidential election in Janauary 11, 2020 so still plenty of time for protestors to play opinions game.

As for mainstream media on geopolitics, read this article:
The Propaganda Multiplier: How Global News Agencies and Western Media Report on Geopolitics
By Swiss Propaganda Research
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To sum it up, mainstream medias are being controlled by the big three news corps: Reuter, AFP & AP, while all others parroting back the same news with mild editing to look like independent reporting locally.
Heyyyy. I posted that before. UNFAIR.
:)
 
China condemns U.S. House approval of bill on Hong Kong
Xinhua| 2019-10-16 10:44:45
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basically a summary of what's happened while I slept;

related Glob. Times story from right before the vote:
US moves to lend support as demonstrations lose steam
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the US Senate will be next
 
Oct 7, 2019
the events according to the SCMP article I linked above:
"In Sham Shui Po, a taxi driver in his 60s rammed into a crowd of protesters and injured a woman. Angry masked groups then pulled the driver out of the car and beat him, before he was later rescued by firefighters. Beaten unconscious, his face and head were covered in blood while the windows of the taxi were smashed."

(hope it's obvious I'm unable to comment on this occasion)
and Saturday at 4:26 PM
now found out in Facebook about an active presumably anti-protesters group, thought I might share:
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守護香港大聯盟發起「反黑暴 禁蒙面 護家園」大聯署

近日,黑色暴力繼續像瘟疫一樣影響全港,守護香港大聯盟今天(10月10日)發起「反黑暴 禁蒙面 護家園」網上大聯署,呼籲廣大市民踴躍參與,共同支持禁蒙面法,向黑色暴力說不,匯聚强大的主流民意,全力支持特區政府及警隊嚴正執法,止暴制亂,讓香港儘快回復正常秩序。

守護香港大聯盟召集人黃英豪表示,發起這次網上大聯署,是因爲一些黑衣暴徒無視反蒙面法等法例,繼續蒙面掩飾身份,到處縱火破壞,還肆意搶劫商鋪,搗毀商場,毆打市民和旅客,令到香港陷入嚴重的黑色恐怖之中,社會不得不經常停擺,市民工作、學習及生活都大受影響。如果不制止這些破壞行爲,好幾代香港人辛辛苦苦積纍下來的成果將毀於一旦。因此,他呼籲不想讓香港自我毀滅的市民,掃專用二維碼或登入
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踴躍參與聯署,以表達大家的心聲,在社會上凝聚起反對黑色暴力,支持禁止蒙面法例,守護美好家園的强大民意,並向外界展示香港真實的聲音,維護香港的良好對外形象。

...
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Protection of Hong Kong Major Alliance launches "Anti-Black violence against anti-Black violence"

Recently, black violence continues to affect Hong Kong as a plague. The protection of the Hong Kong Major Alliance has launched today (October 10) today (October 10) on "Anti-Black violence against black violence" today (October 10th), calling on the public to join and support the ban on the ban. The law, say no to black violence, gather strong mainstream public opinion, fully support the Hong Kong special administrative region government and the police force in their serious enforcement of law enforcement, stop the violence system, and let Hong Kong return to normal order as soon as possible.

The Convener of the Hong Kong Major Alliance of Hong Kong Alliance, Hong Kong, said that the launch of the online co-sponsor was launched because some black-dressed thugs ignore anti-masked laws, and they continued to cover their identity, arson and damage everywhere, and vandalizing shops and vandalizing shops and vandalizing shops. The shopping mall, beating the public and tourists, has caused Hong Kong to be caught in a serious black terror, and the community has to stop regularly, and the public's work, study and life have been affected. Without stopping these acts of destruction, the fruits of Hong Kong people's hard work will be destroyed. Therefore, he called on those who do not want Hong Kong's self-destruction, to sweep the use of the special code or join
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to participate in the joint co-operation, to express their voices in society against black violence and support the ban on the anti-Black violence in society. Strong public opinion to protect the beautiful home, and show the real voice of Hong Kong to the outside world, and safeguard the good external image of Hong Kong.

Kennedy Wong said that the Hong Kong residents (including permanent and non-Permanent residents) who have a Hong Kong Identity Card (including permanent and non-Permanent residents), to ensure the true voice of the general public, participants please fill in front of the upper body. Four Numbers, it is best to be able to provide a phone number at the same time. The organizers will do their best to protect the public's privacy in accordance with the relevant legislation. The Personal Information provided by the participants will only be used for this co-operation. At the same time, the relevant technology will be used in the background to conduct the necessary review, and remove the valid or repeated co-Signatures In accordance with the established rules.

As for the target number of participants in the joint event, Kennedy said that the major alliance did not set a specific target. According to the last major alliance launched by the major alliance, he believes there will be more. In this way, the public will actively express their voice. The Big Alliance will also take a variety of forms, including the full participation of members of more than 360 support groups.
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safeguardhongkong.hk
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一批來自工商、專業、青年、基層等界別的香港社會人士組成, 前身是在今年5月10日宣佈成立的「保公義撐修例大聯盟」。
related is
Hong Kong taxi driver beaten by mob denies he was paid to ram car into crowd of protesters
  • Henry Cheng says he cannot remember how vehicle lost control because he was under attack, but insists he has ‘clear conscience’
  • Cheng says he doesn’t hate those who battered him in notorious Sham Shui Po incident that left two seriously injured

follow the link
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if interested
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
A person like Deng Xiaoping has gone through a life time of war, be it actual hot war or internal power struggle. He is not stupid to put out the 1C2S system which even an average graduate of a political science master's degree could foresee its fatal flaws. Deng Xiaoping is a military commander and general. He is not an ideologue. He thinks in terms of cold calculated game theory. He thinks in terms of possible scenarios on a strategic level. When he negotiated for the return of HK in the 1980s-1990s, China has yet to even prove itself to be able to sustain its own economic growth. The terms he stated was 50 years. Think about this. On a strategic level, what would be the worst case scenario for China when 50 years passes?

1C2S was always meant to favour China, no matter which of your scenarios came to pass, of course DXP knew this.

However, the argument about "needing" HK to fail is not proven by your scenarios. After all, Deng modeled Shenzhen SEZ after HK economically. He knew HK had an effective model to build up the economy. HK's issues are not directly related to the governance model, but the entire city's failure to adapt to the changing winds.

As a corollary, if this kind of political education continues, then what hope is there for HK's future? There is an increasing need for technical education, around the world, and especially in China. If the young are pushed into these political endeavors, then they will almost assuredly fall further behind the rest of Asia. Look at the delays of J-10 and JF-17 for the effects of CR.

To this point, there is a dearth of great HK corporations? HK was ahead technologically, educationally, financially, but now it is history. Even Taiwanese companies like Pegatron and Foxconn, were able to capitalize on China's growth so much better, despite being more politically distanced.

I hate to quote myself, but I think it is very relevant to your points. I believe you mentioned it yourself in the past, the need for technical expertise. That's a reason why HK is falling behind, too embroiled in politics. If you were HK'er, and don't care about politics, why would you stay? There are so many opportunities in mainland China.

Too much time in HK Is wasted debating these issues. The anti-mainland groups put up far too much resistance to any projects that bring HK and mainland closer together. Look at the HSR line from HK to GD. It took almost 10 years for only 26km. Protest after protest, dumb issues like mainland officers doing customs clearance on HK side, meanwhile mainland built the line all the way from SZ to Xiamen.

Like you said, there is a need to think strategically and HK did not. You can argue that this is a failure of democracy, but if people were not so poisoned, perhaps the story would be different.
 

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
1C2S was always meant to favour China, no matter which of your scenarios came to pass, of course DXP knew this.

However, the argument about "needing" HK to fail is not proven by your scenarios. After all, Deng modeled Shenzhen SEZ after HK economically. He knew HK had an effective model to build up the economy. HK's issues are not directly related to the governance model, but the entire city's failure to adapt to the changing winds.



I hate to quote myself, but I think it is very relevant to your points. I believe you mentioned it yourself in the past, the need for technical expertise. That's a reason why HK is falling behind, too embroiled in politics. If you were HK'er, and don't care about politics, why would you stay? There are so many opportunities in mainland China.

Too much time in HK Is wasted debating these issues. The anti-mainland groups put up far too much resistance to any projects that bring HK and mainland closer together. Look at the HSR line from HK to GD. It took almost 10 years for only 26km. Protest after protest, dumb issues like mainland officers doing customs clearance on HK side, meanwhile mainland built the line all the way from SZ to Xiamen.

Like you said, there is a need to think strategically and HK did not. You can argue that this is a failure of democracy, but if people were not so poisoned, perhaps the story would be different.
People's mind were poisoned the moment they chose to be subjects of the colonialists and chose to go under the hammer of Proselytization that is a characteristic of Colonial pursuits. There is nothing the CCP can do that will change their minds. Change has to come from within... From the grassroots. The stakeholders of the city must realize a love for the nation. That's what matters. It all depends upon the working class. Religion isn't an impediment for patriotism. But it can be made so by the connivance of vested interests.
As long as the Renminbi isn't freely convertible
... There exists the strength of HKD. And HKD contributes to the separatism and elitism of the HK people.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Interesting read but yet, this proves the motives of some Westerners when it comes to China.


What America Didn’t Anticipate About China
For too long, policy makers ignored the possibility that China could transform the U.S., rather than the other way around.

From the late 19th century up to World War II, Americans were seized with the idea of transforming China into a Christian, capitalist America on the other side of the Pacific Ocean.

The word “plastic” pops up again and again in American statements about China from that era. China is “plastic” in the hands of “strong and capable Westerners,” announced President Woodrow Wilson in 1914. “China has become plastic after centuries of rigid conventionalism,”declared Selskar M. Gunn, a vice president of the Rockefeller Foundation, in May 1933.

But from the beginning, Americans were also afraid that China — or the Chinese — would change them, too. In 1870, following the Civil War, Congress limited naturalization to whites and blacks. Later, the United States tried to inoculate itself against the influence of the Chinese by banning many of them from America’s shores. Starting with the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, the U.S. Congress passed a series of racist immigration laws which would not be significantly modified until World War II, when China was an ally in America’s fight against Japan. It looked bad for the US to deny Chinese the right to travel in America while Chinese under American command were dying on Asian battlefields.
........

In April 1868, a delegation of Chinese officials visited the United States. Among them was a Manchu Mandarin named Zhigang who authored one of the first Chinese travelogues describing a visit to the West. Zhigang wrote reams on American shipbuilding, steel mills, microscopes, and printing presses. Zhigang also had an insight about the resilience of American values that his successors in Beijing understand today. In America, he noted, “the love of God is less real than the love of profit.” Or as the straight-shooting Jason Whitlock said on the Fox Sports show Speak for Yourself the other day, “Quit faking the funk … When China tells you to shut the hell up, everybody shuts the hell up. Everybody loses their courage when there’s money on the line.”

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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
From the late 19th century up to World War II, Americans were seized with the idea of transforming China into a Christian, capitalist America on the other side of the Pacific Ocean.
No they didn't. If they did, they would have at least been well-meaning. They wanted to transform China into a big Christian capitalist Japan that endlessly idolizes an American master and can be swayed and coerced into sacrificing its own interests to bolster America's. Having such a controllable yet powerful ally, or henchman, would cement America as the world's hegemon for any foreseeable future.
 
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