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Jura The idiot

Jura The idiot

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MAKS: US sanctions make air forces wary of Russian jets
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The USA’s Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) is making air forces wary of buying Russian aircraft and other weapons.

That’s according to officials from Russian defence holding company Rostec and the country’s export agency Rosoboronexport, who spoke during the MAKS air show near Moscow on 28 August.

CAATSA was enacted in retaliation for Russia’s invasion and occupation of Ukraine’s eastern regions and Crimean Peninsula.

The issue slowed India’s first payments on the Almaz-Antey S-400 Triumph anti-aircraft system, as no Indian banks want to facilitate the transaction and be subject to US sanctions.

Recently the two countries settled on a rupee-for-rubbles payment scheme, says Victor Kladov, director of international cooperation and regional policy for Rostec.

“There were initial difficulties due to banking restrictions,” says Kladov. “But then we talked on a [government-to-government] level and we used different currencies. In the case of India we rely on rupees. The system is adapted to new reality.”

India is expected to imminently pay 20% of the $5.2 billion cost of the S-400 Triumph, with Russia planning to deliver the first shipment of parts for the weapons system upon receipt, Russian Trade Commissioner Yaroslav Tarasyuk reportedly told an Indian newspaper on 28 August. That report says Russian bank Sberbank will facilitate the exchange.

While Rostec’s Kladov downplays the need to circumvent US sanctions in the case of India, he acknowledges some countries have grown cautious of arms sales from Russia. For instance, Indonesia’s interest in buying Sukhoi Su-35 fighters appears to be dampened by worries of blowback from the USA.

“We feel like some nations are more cautious,” says Kladov. “For instance, yesterday I talked to the Indonesian chief of the air force and he mentioned CAATSA, the US law. From what he says, I understand they receive threats. They are dependent not just on Russian equipment, they are dependent on a large part of US-made equipment. If as a punishment measure, let’s say, American manufacturers stop supplying spares, stop supporting American-made equipment, then there will be a breach in security in national defence in Indonesia. So, they are very cautious.”

In August 2017, Jakarta confirmed it would buy 11 Su-35s for $1.14 billion, with a major component of the deal involving agricultural commodities.

Dmitry Shugaev, director general of the federal service of military-technical cooperation with Rosoboronexport, says in a separate press conference that USA sanctions amount to “unfair competition”.

“They want to push Russia away from traditional markets, and create unbearable conditions, and not to give us a way into new markets,” he says. “The pressure is going up every day [on potential customers]. We see it every day and it is not a secret, not a secret for anyone.”
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Dizasta1

Dizasta1

Senior Member
What caatsa? Turkey has bought the S-400 and is how giving it serious thought to buy the Su-57. Saudi regime has decided to buy S-400s, the news of this has been re-reported by Reuters. Qatar is also looking to buy the S-400s from Russia. And then you have U.S.A's poster child, India, which is also going to buy S-400s and might be reconsidering to rejoin the Su-57 project. Is America's caatsa going to slap sanctions on Turkey, Qatar, Saudis & India in one go? Because unless I missed my guess, caatsa is suppose to be "one size fits all" type'a deal, right?
 
Air Force Brat

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Dizasta1 said:
What caatsa? Turkey has bought the S-400 and is how giving it serious thought to buy the Su-57. Saudi regime has decided to buy S-400s, the news of this has been re-reported by Reuters. Qatar is also looking to buy the S-400s from Russia. And then you have U.S.A's poster child, India, which is also going to buy S-400s and might be reconsidering to rejoin the Su-57 project. Is America's caatsa going to slap sanctions on Turkey, Qatar, Saudis & India in one go? Because unless I missed my guess, caatsa is suppose to be "one size fits all" type'a deal, right?
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Yes, but we might make some concessions to our real friends, but those who buy the S-400 will NOT ever be offered the F-35, so people really ought to look "down the road".
 
Brumby

Brumby

Major
Air Force Brat said:
Yes, but we might make some concessions to our real friends, but those who buy the S-400 will NOT ever be offered the F-35, so people really ought to look "down the road".
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I agree that the F-35 and S-400 cannot co-exist in any particular country and not prejudice the F-35 program. The security risk is just too great to the F-35 program. In my view it is a binary choice.

As to CAATSA. the POTUS has room to maneuver. After all politics has been described as the art of the possible.
 
Dizasta1

Dizasta1

Senior Member
Air Force Brat said:
Yes, but we might make some concessions to our real friends, but those who buy the S-400 will NOT ever be offered the F-35, so people really ought to look "down the road".
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So in layman' term, caatsa means that if you're an american ally, who is eligible tfor the buy F-35s, is prohibited from buying S-400s? Is that the only penalty that an ally faces, when caatsa is implemented? Because if that is it, then it's no wonder Turkey has taken such a belligerent stance. What is the full measure of penalties that would entail breaching caatsa? Surely there is more to this than just not having F-35s. Like in Indonesia's case, they aren't in any position to buy F-35s, then what would the reason for the Indonesian Air Force's chief citing caatsa to Russia really mean?
 
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Air Force Brat

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Dizasta1 said:
So in layman' term, caatsa means that if you're an american ally, who is eligible tfor the buy F-35s, is prohibited from buying S-400s? Is that the only penalty that an ally faces, when caatsa is implemented? Because if that is it, then it's no wonder Turkey has taken such a belligerent stance. What is the full measure of penalties that would entail breaching caatsa? Surely there is more to this than just not having F-35s. Like in Indonesia's case, they aren't in any position to buy F-35s, then what would the reason for the Indonesian Air Force's chief citing caatsa to Russia really mean?
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Turkey did indeed take delivery of two F-35's, and Turkish Pilots and Maintainers have been in training to fly their F-35s, those F-35's remained in the US as part of the partner's training protocol, and had Turkey not bought the S-400, they would soon have been taking delivery of more F-35's. Turkey not only violated Russian sanctions by purchasing the S-400, but had every intention of basing the F-35 next to the S-400's which would allow the Turks and their Russian trainers to "Game the F-35", and probe its secrets, potentially compromising the survivability of the F-35 and its aircrew...

That is non-negotiable, and Turkey has now lost their F-35 partnership and production of F-35 aircraft systems and parts, that hurts and Turkey is having a tantrum over that sad state of affairs. They had ample warning, in fact people begging them to buy the Patriot, in order to remain in the F-35 enterprise, and they would have eventually made a "hell of a lot of money" as well as bringing Turkish defense contractors into the 5th gen business, potentially allowing them to build their own 5th Generation aircraft.

But no, there are full range of consequences for those who violate sanctions and capitalize and aggressive Russian resurgence, so No again, its NOT one size fits all, but a "tailored response", depending on the seriousness of the breach, and why people violated sanctions? was it to maintain a previously purchased Russian system and keep it functioning? or in the case of Turkey, was it a "slap in the face", and act you have characterized as "belligerent".

So Russia will offer Turkey the Su-35 and hope they are happy, with a promise to be "eligible" to buy the Su-57 in the future?
 
Brumby

Brumby

Major
Dizasta1 said:
So in layman' term, caatsa means that if you're an american ally, who is eligible tfor the buy F-35s, is prohibited from buying S-400s? Is that the only penalty that an ally faces, when caatsa is implemented? Because if that is it, then it's no wonder Turkey has taken such a belligerent stance. What is the full measure of penalties that would entail breaching caatsa? Surely there is more to this than just not having F-35s. Like in Indonesia's case, they aren't in any position to buy F-35s, then what would the reason for the Indonesian Air Force's chief citing caatsa to Russia really mean?
Click to expand...

You are conflating two different issues. The sourcing of both S400 and F-35 by any particular country is not going to happen because that would put at risk a trillion dollar program to the US and its partner nations. This security risk is independent from the existence of CAATSA. In other words, the binary choice has no relationship to CAATSA regardless of whether such legislation exist or not. In the case of Turkey, it has been booted off the F-35 program because of the security risk Whether sanctions will be applied because of CAATSA is still subject to the decision of the Trump administration. Unfortunately CAATSA is a blunt legislative instrument with unintended consequences. It has however very strong Congressional support when the bill was passed. By law the Trump administration will have to abide and navigate through the mine field including sacrificing political capital to protect Turkey from the sanctions should it choose to do so. There are however limits to executive actions and Turkey presently do not have much Congressional support due to its various actions..

CAATSA in relation to Indonesia may be different. In politics, you try to accommodate your allies and that would be to work out some sort of political solution. Politics is messy and so this is just another in a long list.
 
B

Bhurki

Junior Member
Registered Member
If it was for revealing the secrets of f35 to the russians, why didn't turkey just wait to order s400 until it already had a sizable operational fleet of f35?
Considering the heavy repercussions its going to face now, what more could have happened? Surely, US couldn't have lifted those f35 off turkey or declare war for such an issue?
 
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