Chinese Engine Development
- Thread starter jackbh
- Start date
This level of improvement in the engine's design demonstrates that the Chinese have achieved near autonomy in the support of these Russian-made engines.
Meanwhile China imports series 3 engines for the J-10B.
It's funny how a random Russian Think Tank is now accepted. Can't wait to dismiss what a Russian Think Tank claims because they are claiming bad news.
And next year we are all surprised why Chinese aircraft are still using Russian engines, despite al the Chinese breakthroughs... because you know "material science"
I'm not sure what the import of Russian engines is meant to demonstrate, because it certainly doesn't disprove the idea that "near autonomy" in supporting imported Russian engines has been achieved.
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As for the last few pages of discussion...
Gongke stating that J-20 used Al-31s with domestic modifications isn't something that can be confidently proven or disproven, but as with most PLA watching it provides a key marker for us to keep in mind.
Assuming that there were modifications, that does not give us much information to work with either, because we don't know the extent of the modifications, the extent to which thrust was increased, which means we can't have a useful estimate for the amount of work and expertise and resources that might have been needed to produce those modifications anyhow.
manqiangrexue
Brigadier
It's funny how you would accept an interpretation of information that way. If the Chinese have taken a Russian engine, departed protocol, and made additional improvements to it, that means that it demonstrates near autonomy in simply support? That's your level of critical thinking? Impressive. I don't need to accept interpretations of articles but I accept when provided evidence, that something has factually happened, such as the enhancement of an engine from 900-1500 hours. I make my interpretations on that. The your original statement contradicts facts; that is the point. It does not matter what interpretation you choose to accept.
The Chinese have made improvements to Russian engines, and is fact. You lose, game over. Your statement is wrong. Anything after that is your attempt to wiggle this into another plane adding to the potential for further embarrassment on your part.
China imports AL-31FN3 while the US operates UK-imported Harriers. Chinese fighters use Chinese engines, Russian engines, and Chinese-enhanced Russian engines. Nobody's surprised and if you think that anyone is, it only further demonstrates your ignorance of the Chinese military aerospace field. And that you brought this up to confront the fact that you thought that the Chinese could not improve foreign engines when they factually have only shows how desperately out of strategy you are to continue the conversation. This is because no one can intelligently continue the conversation at this point from your perspective; it is like arguing that the sky never turns blue. Your fault was starting this nonsense in the first place and then grasping at straws to try to save face when it was obvious that you are wrong.
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What you quoted didn’t say what you thought it did.
Apparently you got that from Wikipedia under section 117S.
If we are to believe in Wikipedia as you did, 117S is the internal name Izdeliye 117S which began to be produced since 2010.
China imported the earlier Su-27 which were produced in the 1980s to 1990s. These AF-31F was Izd 99 according the following post.
Here I quote the post, pay attention to the bold texts.
This AL-31 is NOT that AL-31.
And the shortest life is less than 900h.P.S. this poster seems to be from a country that imported Su-30MK. India or Malaysia perhaps.
Bear in mind that hardware changes are not the only way to extend life/TBO. The AL-31F and other Soviet engines were designed to utilize a very different, more wartime-style maintenance regime where between each overhaul very little work was done on them at all, while Western procedures foresaw quite a bit of inspection and service. It is most likely that the Chinese invented a new maintenance protocol that increases TBO (involving removal from the airframe) intervals at the cost of more remedial work with the engine installed. There's a limit to what you can achieve with this approach: for example if extending TBO further requires borescope inspections of a certain area but the airframe and engine structure do not provide for borescope access to that part while installed, then you obviously (and literally...) hit a wall.
117S service life is 4000h, TBO 1500 or 2000h (I forget which). Note also that AL-31F Series 4 engines were therefore delivering roughly the same durability figures 15 years ago as the WS-10 is only achieving recently. Since that level was apparently acceptable in the J-10 previously, it's logical that the WS-10 would now be considered mature enough to replace the AL-31F even in this single engine application and render the aircraft fully indigenous.
Venezuela.
117S service life is 4000h, TBO 1500 or 2000h (I forget which). Note also that AL-31F Series 4 engines were therefore delivering roughly the same durability figures 15 years ago as the WS-10 is only achieving recently. Since that level was apparently acceptable in the J-10 previously, it's logical that the WS-10 would now be considered mature enough to replace the AL-31F even in this single engine application and render the aircraft fully indigenous.
Venezuela.
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Lol settle down. It must be hard to accept that Chinese are no longer interested in AL-31s and won't be purchasing any more. So your claim that next year we'll be surprised why Chinese aircraft are using Russian engines is a sneaky sneaky one
Yeah the existing fighters using AL-31 types will still be using AL-31 types next year. Duh. But no more will be ordered. This point is outside what the discussion was on but it is necessary to address your sneaky attempt at using words to make it seem like it has anything remotely to do with the point in question ie can China modify Russian origin AL-31s. If they can, how on earth do you know the Russian origin AL-31s on J-whatevers do not have some Chinese mods to them? Can I remind you that you are not an engineer working in this field or perhaps even someone with a science background. You certainly are not working within Chinese aerospace industry so just because you've used the words "material science", it doesn't mean your unscientific and illogical opinions about how engineering works, contain any merit. Further, the arrogance you espouse and defend them make you a bit tactless if your interest is in genuine, quality discussions. Perhaps it is but you're certainly getting carried away by your emotions on this topic.
Since no one knows for sure, let's just drop the topic. To answer this question with any degree of certainty is impossible for us here just like answering whether or not Type 055 can actually launch missiles (none of us have seen it after all). So let's all just leave this here since it appears no progress can be made and all worthwhile points have been expressed. It's really so tiring and becomes a China can and is stronk! vs China can't and is weak! wank-fest. You've all made your points. Just let the readers judge at this point. It doesn't change the reality on the ground so who cares.
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People are surprisingly getting really worked up over the engine issue. Please calm down and discuss civilly.
