UK Team Tempest

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
If you think F-35 is a mess then I can assure you that the NGF will be Godzilla size "mess" by your definition.

Such programs will continue to get more complex and consequently much more expensive until no military service on the world can afford to buy them in sufficient numbers. Such a future had been written in the wall except that there is a reluctance to understand why and to accept such a future state. The development path cannot be based on historical models as they clearly demonstrate a trend that is unstainable. If you don't understand the underlying factors then every future program will simply be a "mess" by definition because they will be expensive, complex and prone to issues by our own myopic view of capabilities and outcomes.

One of the fundamental lesson with the F-35 and it serves as an insight why such a model is unsustainable is because it is too platform centric. Essentially the approach is to build all the capabilities to cater to present and future threats into the platform. If this is the approach does anybody seriously think any future platform will be any better in terms of development and sustainment cost? The game in town is that the upscale technology chain and the cycle is evolving quickly and the time cycle is compressing. A platform centric approach is too inflexible to cope with technological changes in order to remain relevant against future threats. It is the main driver why the emphasis has shifted to a concept of system of systems because development work can be undertaken concurrently on all the systems and not sequentially.

This brings me to the news of the day.

Next-Generation Air Dominance Doesn't Mean New Aircraft, Air Force Official Says

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IMO, the US is best placed to exploit and effectively roll out any NGF program whatever form it may turned out to be viz a viz the Tempest or the European program. The main reason is because operating in a 5th gen environment transforms the way you operate and how decisions are shared and made. It is fundamentally different from that of a 4th generation force. As such, it will be easier to migrate from a 5th generation operating structure to a future state which is likely to be more decentralised in nature. As an example, a system of systems is dependent on robust communication links and you cannot gel different systems working together without it. The US with the F-35 is finding itself insufficiently invested in communication infrastructure to operate coherently with things like 5th to 4th gen com issues. Additionally the data pipes are simply not big enough to handle required data throughput, latency and volume as will be more demanding in a system of systems environment. Does anybody seriously think the Europeans can easily jump from a 4th gen to a 6th gen environment without having gone through the investment of a 5th gen operating infrastructure?
.

Well lets be honest, the European birds are NOT 6th Gen, they are 5+ electronically, but their airframes may or may not outperform current 5 Gens..

Sixth Gen is a term that is thrown around a lot, but no one has nailed down an aerodynamic capability which is making a "generational leap"!

you will still need a "platform" or "platforms" more likely to move the ball forward, we really shouldn't forget that, the move away from a dedicated fighter platform isn't necessarily helping the process to "jell".....
 
If you think F-35 is a mess then I can assure you that the NGF will be Godzilla size "mess" by your definition.

Such programs will continue to get more complex and consequently much more expensive until no military service on the world can afford to buy them in sufficient numbers.
no, I don't think in the foreseeable future (ca. mid of this century) any military program will get more expensive than the Joint Strike Fighter Program,

because the US Military won't go into group sex again as in Joint of the Joint Strike Fighter Program

(a politically-correct version of this statement is available),

and the US Military won't go into one-size-fits-all aircraft

(a politically-correct version of this statement is unavailable, as the Pentagon of course wouldn't admit it messed up with a number of aircraft capabilities at once for decades to come)

as for the rest of your post:
Such a future had been written in the wall except that there is a reluctance to understand why and to accept such a future state. The development path cannot be based on historical models as they clearly demonstrate a trend that is unstainable. If you don't understand the underlying factors then every future program will simply be a "mess" by definition because they will be expensive, complex and prone to issues by our own myopic view of capabilities and outcomes.

One of the fundamental lesson with the F-35 and it serves as an insight why such a model is unsustainable is because it is too platform centric. Essentially the approach is to build all the capabilities to cater to present and future threats into the platform. If this is the approach does anybody seriously think any future platform will be any better in terms of development and sustainment cost? The game in town is that the upscale technology chain and the cycle is evolving quickly and the time cycle is compressing. A platform centric approach is too inflexible to cope with technological changes in order to remain relevant against future threats. It is the main driver why the emphasis has shifted to a concept of system of systems because development work can be undertaken concurrently on all the systems and not sequentially.

This brings me to the news of the day.

Next-Generation Air Dominance Doesn't Mean New Aircraft, Air Force Official Says

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


IMO, the US is best placed to exploit and effectively roll out any NGF program whatever form it may turned out to be viz a viz the Tempest or the European program. The main reason is because operating in a 5th gen environment transforms the way you operate and how decisions are shared and made. It is fundamentally different from that of a 4th generation force. As such, it will be easier to migrate from a 5th generation operating structure to a future state which is likely to be more decentralised in nature. As an example, a system of systems is dependent on robust communication links and you cannot gel different systems working together without it. The US with the F-35 is finding itself insufficiently invested in communication infrastructure to operate coherently with things like 5th to 4th gen com issues. Additionally the data pipes are simply not big enough to handle required data throughput, latency and volume as will be more demanding in a system of systems environment. Does anybody seriously think the Europeans can easily jump from a 4th gen to a 6th gen environment without having gone through the investment of a 5th gen operating infrastructure?
.
let's wait and see what a new economic crisis does to "systems of systems" LOL probably teen-series will be good enough

by the way the US is piling up debt as there's no tomorrow I mean the government deficit approaching 1t at the times of a supposed boom
 
... A platform centric approach is ...
in short, I believe in "platform-centric" capabilities (like of a great interceptor; CAS; fighter-bomber; fighter-ASh etc. ALL SEPARATE aircraft),

and I don't believe in "systems of systems" talking
 
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Pmichael

Junior Member
That is what you call variants in the manufacturing world.
Whether it is an upgrade or a sub-par engine if you share the air frame then it will be a variant of the original. Automobile offers various variants which offers different engine displacements and components. If component shares interfaces then it is called a modular variant since it can be swapped easily with other components with the same interface.

Engine integration is a crucial aspect of aircraft design. You don't just build two fighters with two different types of engines. I don't think you could find an example in the jet fighter history.

F16A/B models have a different engine than C/D models C/D models Block 30 and 40 have a different engine than Blocks 25,32 and 42 and Blocks 50,52 and 60 don’t share any engines with any other blocks.

All those planes are using F110 engine derivates and you can already see how complex engine integration is even within the same air frame and engine family.
 

Pmichael

Junior Member
It's also funny when people claim how 5th gen be integrated into a system of systems concept when the F-22 can't even properly communicate and share information with other platforms.
And even the computing power and energy output of the F-35 is rather subpar. There is not a single 5th aircraft designed for an enviroment where the plane isn't just a receiver of information and decision making process but the central commando station.

Also engineering is not some strategy game technology tree where you need tech X for tech Y. Especially if Airbus the world's second biggest aerospace and defence company is in charge of it.
 
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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
All those planes are using F110 engine derivates and you can already see how complex engine integration is even within the same air frame and engine family.
No they don’t. F16 A/B used Pratt and Whitney F100 PW200 Engines
F16C Blocks 25,32 and 42 use PW 100 PW 200E
Block 30 and 40 introduce the GE F110 family but each variant of the engines is different for each block. Block 50 used F110 GE129 where block 52 goes to the F110 GE 229 and Block 60 the F110 GE 132
So you are already wrong.
Engine integration is a crucial aspect of aircraft design. You don't just build two fighters with two different types of engines. I don't think you could find an example in the jet fighter history.
Actually this happens quite often. The US F35 was supposed to have two engine options the F135 and F136 however the choice was made only to move ahead on one as a budgetary matter.
F15E models Strike Eagles in the US used F100 engines but F15 of the same type in export adopted F110s. Yes the Engine has to be built to a set specs however In this case along with the F136 the engine was designed to fit the frame and produce similar power requirements. The F119 was chosen for F22 but there was an alternative the F120. It’s more common on civil aviation but not unheard of for military to have alternative engine options.
It's also funny when people claim how 5th gen be integrated into a system of systems concept when the F-22 can't even properly communicate and share information with other platforms.
Because the datalink system is different and that was for a reason. NATO standard is the Link 16 system. Potential US Adversaries know that, As does the USAF. With F22 the Low observable aspect was given an emphasis so the choice early on was not to integrate Link 16 as its able to be intercepted and triangulated.
They designed a new datalink the Intra Flight Data Link however this system operates on a totally different method of transmission than previous systems and would require that previous generation aircraft be retrofitted with a IFDL pod like the Talon HATE in order to link with F22.
During F35 development a more advanced datalink was developed the MALD as an evolution of the same concept behind the F22’s IFDL but more data is shared. It’s like trying to get the Information of an IPhone on a Nokia 720. F35 introduced more information and sensors to the mix and changed how existing sensors that are found on Raptor see the world.
Both IFDL and MALD are line of sight datalink systems where Link 16 is a radio based system
And even the computing power and energy output of the F-35 is rather subpar. There is not a single 5th aircraft designed for an enviroment where the plane isn't just a receiver of information and decision making process but the central commando station.
compared with what?
There are four fifth gen fighters in the world and a bunch of hopefuls.
The two we know the most about are F22 and F35 because they are American and every hiccup the program has had is made public. Almost nothing is known of the systems and avionics of J20 and SU57.
Even the MFD of the cockpits are debated with fakes and Photoshops.
F35’s processors are getting a little old sure but those are meant to be replaced. And every few blocks they are so what is your fracking point?
F35 and F22 has built in from day zero electronic warfare equipment you Normally find on dedicated SEAD birds and fully integrated countermeasures. F35 even has towed decoys built in a feature normally podded on any other bird.
They have Missile warning receivers in both the IR and radar spectrums features not found on any previous fighter without being added on.
F35 took those updated them from F22 and even changed how they worked. The EODAS system uses the same number, speed and resolution as the cameras of the Missile warning system of the F22 but processes that differently allowing not just missile warning but also allowing the see through capability of the HMD in essence a all aspect IR search and track around the fighter limited only by the atmosphere.


Also engineering is not some strategy game technology tree where you need tech X for tech Y. Especially if Airbus the world's second biggest aerospace and defence company is in charge of it.
Oh you need to understand how to make and use materials that means that sometimes a tech tree is what happens. Have Blue led to F117 and that plus Tacit Blue, And Fly by wire from F16 lead to B2, and that lead to F22. And F22 led to F35. A whole series of prototypes lead to where we are today.

Airbus isn’t in the fighter business it’s in civil aviation with military Rotary wing and transports. There name Airbus is in English exactly what they do make Air Buses, transports. They had a hand in the Typhoon but it was BAE who designed the Eurofighter. And only after Airbus absorbed EADS did they get the 46% of the program. Even the French German Program is already pretty well laid out Airbus as Junior partner with Dassault as the lead for design and integration.
 

Brumby

Major
Well lets be honest, the European birds are NOT 6th Gen, they are 5+ electronically, but their airframes may or may not outperform current 5 Gens..
Totally agree. The US already has the F-35 which in my view is the de facto starting point of where the Tempest and the European want to get to. In this respect, the US is already much ahead. As I have advocated before, the F-35 version 2.0 with adaptive engine and loyal wingman is essentially what the other programs wish to get to eventually and which the F-35 is more likely than not be by the mid 20s.

Sixth Gen is a term that is thrown around a lot, but no one has nailed down an aerodynamic capability which is making a "generational leap"!
I think the idea of 6th gen is dead for the moment until there is some breakthrough technology that defines such a state. Until then I think is best to simply term it as NGF.

you will still need a "platform" or "platforms" more likely to move the ball forward, we really shouldn't forget that, the move away from a dedicated fighter platform isn't necessarily helping the process to "jell".....

I understand you are looking forward to a NGF to take the reins of the F-22. I personally don't see it yet beyond the horizon because I think future technology will define the pathway. This is driven by the need to achieve a set of desired outcomes and the set of outcomes can only come from BVR engagements and not WVR . In a 2009 Jane article, LM shared a set of simulation data which is insightful. Basically their simulation says the F-35 can deliver a kill ratio of 6 against modern 4th fighters. However such an outcome is dependent on an environment that is predominantly BVR.

Lockheed Martin has defended the air-to-air capabilities of the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) while conceding that the aircraft's performance in combat within visual range (WVR) will only be marginally superior to that of its fourth-generation and advanced fourth-generation counterparts.

Briefing Australian journalists at Lockheed Martin's Fort Worth facility on 2 February, Jerry Mazanowski, senior manager of air systems in the company's strategic studies group, compared the air-to-air performance of the F-35 with that of the Eurofighter, Dassault Rafale, Saab Gripen, Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet and Sukhoi Su-30MKI. He said that in a typical combat configuration carrying four internally stored AIM-120 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAMs), the F-35 was marginally faster than the Su-30MKI carrying eight beyond-visual-range (BVR) missiles and no external fuel tanks; and that it was faster than the Eurofighter, Gripen C, Rafale and F/A-18 carrying four BVR and two WVR missiles and a single external fuel tank (two in the Eurofighter's case).

On an air-to-air mission with a radius of 200 n miles, no external fuel tanks but the same missile load and a requirement to accelerate from Mach 0.8 to Mach 1.2 at 30,000 ft, the F-35 was shown coming second best. With a requirement involving the same acceleration and the aircraft: tasked for a 600 n mile 'out and back' mission, Mazanowski said the F-35 was "nothing stellar but certainly not an

underperformer in this category". When accelerating from Mach 0.6 to 0.95 - important if evading a surface-to-air missile or in combat with other aircraft: - the F-35 showed a comparable performance to its counterparts.

Discussing maximum mission radius, Mazanowski presented an air-to-air mission profile in which all the aircraft: took off with a weapon load, remained at high altitude and returned after about a minute of combat. All but the F-35 and Su-30MKI were carrying three external fuel tanks. Under this scenario, the Rafale had a maximum mission radius of 896 n miles, the F/A-18 816 n miles, the F-35 751 n miles, the Eurofighter 747 n miles, the Su-30MKI 728 n miles and the Gripen 502 n miles.

According to Mazanowski, the JSF joint programme office required the modelling to assume an F-35 engine at the end of its life with 5 per cent fuel degradation and a 2 per cent reduction in thrust. The counterpart aircraft were given the benefit of the doubt wherever platform and systems performance were not clear - as, for example, in the assumption that all five would have active electronicalty scanned array radars operational within five years.

Modelling based on operational experience and simulation showed that 72 per cent of future engagements would be BVR, 31 per cent would be at transitional range (between 8 n miles and
18 n miles) and 7 per cent WVR.

Mazanowski acknowledged that these figures did not take account of BVR engagements that might develop into WVR engagements. Taking all salient aircraft characteristics into account and utilising the Brawler modelling and simulation tool, the F-35 showed a better than six to one relative loss exchange ratio while the other aircraft scored less than one to one. This was in a four-versus-four scenario against what Mazanowski described as a "threat aircraft in the not-too-distant future". He attributed this almost entirely to the F-35's superior stealth and situational awareness.

In a WVR engagement, the differences in the capabilities of the various aircraft were barely measurable. Although the F-35 was assumed not to be carrying externally mounted short-range
AIM-9X missiles to avoid increasing its radar cross-section, Mazanowski praised the short-range performance of AMRAAM.

'The VNR environment, once you get there, is very awkward and very lethal. We think the F-35 may have some limited advantage in situational awareness with its DAS [distributed aperture system] and hopefully there would be enough wingmen to work their way out of the situation," Mazanowski said.

He added: "One guy has a little bit of an advantage in VWR and can shoot first, but both folks end up not doing well."
 

anzha

Senior Member
Registered Member
Less than 15 months after unveiling its long-term air combat strategy and next-generation Tempest concept, the UK has added a second international partner to the latter activity, with Italy signing a statement of intent to work on the project.

The international armament directors of the UK and Italy signed an agreement at the DSEI exhibition in London on 10 September, followed by a similar pact the next day between their defence industries.

Study phase, just like the Swedes. However, given the path the Europeans normally follow, this is the normal route to formal teaming.

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