China Ballistic Missiles and Nuclear Arms Thread

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... But exercise some common sense. ...
if they knew they'd use a nuclear-tipped Dong-Feng, they could save themselves the effort of developing the stuff described in
#2836 AndrewS, Today at 12:04 PM
and still have a working deterrent (the USN would have to react either way)

I leave it to others what payload/blast of a nuke would be needed

my point is there may be no such thing as Dong-Feng AShBM with a conventional warhead
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Let's give it a try with a back of the envelope calculation.

1. Last guidance in space before plasma sheath appears during reentry

Let's say this starts at 80km, as per the Space Shuttle
A Mach 7 MaRV takes 41seconds to impact
In that time, a carrier travelling at 30knots (55km/h) travels 626m.
But in 41 seconds at full speed, how much can a carrier turn direction? An 8KM turning circle has been mentioned, which is 523seconds.
A carrier travelling at slower speeds can turn faster, but won't travel as far.
That narrows the target area further.

That gets a Mach 7 MaRV close to a carrier, possibly good enough for a wide dispersion cluster warhead to score hits.
I reckon this is a backup mode, if the MaRV can't obtain terminal guidance.

Otherwise the MaRV would go for a tighter dispersion of cluster munitions with terminal guidance.
So there is the armour piercing MaRV body, plus cluster munitions.

2. Terminal Guidance

A Mach 7 MaRV will cover the last 10km in 5 seconds before impacting.
In that time, a carrier could travel 152m, but again the target area is smaller than this because the carrier can't change direction in only 5 seconds.

And an aircraft carrier has a deck width of 76m.
A Peacekeeper warhead has a CEP of 40m, presumably from its attitude control jets and internal inertial guidance.
The Mach 7 Iskander MaRV is supposed to have a 5m-30m CEP with its terminal guidance.
Plus we also see Air-to-Air missiles with attitude control jets for terminal manoeuvres against manoeuvring fighter jets.

2A. Remote Terminal Guidance

Also remember that the space shuttle could communicate with satellites during reentry, because the plasma shroud didn't cover the back of the aircraft.
And we've seen technical diagrams with antenna protruding from the back of a MaRV beyond the plasma shroud.
So theoretically a MaRV could be remotely guided by external sensors to the target point.


2B. Local Terminal Guidance

But external sensors and comms can be jammed or destroyed.
Plus there is the feedback loop and communications lag
So the MaRV should also has its own radar seeker for terminal guidance.
That seeker only has to look at a small target box, and the attitude control jets should be sufficient to adjust the final aimpoint
Some comments to the numbers according to my reading of a research paper "Plasma-Radiofrequency Interactions Around Atmospheric Re-Entry Vehicles:Modelling and Arc-Jet Simulation by Raffaele Savino of University of Naples Federico II", see the diagram below.

The onset of blackout is 80km as you said. But the velocity at that time is Mach 20 (7km/s +). The recovery (exit) altitude is 40km for ESA ADM capsule or 50km for Shuttle, the volocity is 2 and 3 km/s, roughly mach 6 to 9. So time to impact is much shorter than 41s. This means the target has a even shorter time to evade, let's say 30s (from onset to impact).

However we should remember that both a space shuttle and space capsule are shaped to slow down, so their recovery velocity is lowered to mach 6/9. Iskander is a SRBM, so the mach 7. DF-1D would be similar to Iskandar, so Mach 7 being reasonable. DF-26 is IRBM, the warhead is long and pointy, so expect much higher recovery velocity (say Mach 15). This is demonstrated by RAM-C test vehicle at Mach 16. So facing at DF-26, it is probably 10 to 20s.

As of the terminal guidance, it is known that DF-21D and DF-26 use onboard radar guidance (local) at least. There is a 2011 national reward to a person who developed heat ablation radar dome. That reward was published on official web site but quickly removed.

As of the remote terminal guidance, it is not certain but possible as I said in earlier post. And if that technique is implemented, there would be no blackout at all.


upload_2019-7-4_20-44-27.png
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
continue #2842,

The challenge is not about maintaining target acquisition, tracking and homing by the navigation system any more, but rather the control surfaces to act upon the control input under the high temperature and high aerodynamic force due to the high Mach number.

This has been achieved according to the same national reward in 2011.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
But external sensors and comms can be jammed or destroyed.
Plus there is the feedback loop and communications lag
I want to pick up on this point. AShBM targeting is an interesting instance of what's called the Byzantine Generals Problem (here's a description on wiki:
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). A foundational result of distributed computing is that this problem can be solved if and only if the proportion of faulty processes (in our case guidance sensors, including any sensors aboard the warhead itself) - here "faulty" means not transmitting the correct coordinates of the carrier to the warhead for any reason, be it a flaw in the sensor's design, or the sensor's destruction/jamming/spoofing/disabling by enemy action - is less than one third.

This is why it's so important for China to build more redundancy into the firing sequence (what's mistakenly called the "kill chain"). This is a problem independent of the missile's terminal kinematics and accuracy. The supporting sensors must be varied, reliable, and hardened against enemy countermeasures.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
continue #2842,

The challenge is not about maintaining target acquisition, tracking and homing by the navigation system any more, but rather the control surfaces to act upon the control input under the high temperature and high aerodynamic force due to the high Mach number.

This has been achieved according to the same national reward in 2011.

Was that award in reference to the DF-21D or DF-26?

We can also see the R-37 air-to-air missile with a speed of Mach 6, which is comparable to the speed of the DF-21D.
That would suggest that radar and control surfaces for the DF-21D is technically feasible.

But the Jupiter and Thor IRBMs had a reentry velocity of Mach 13, which looks comparable to the DF-26
 

Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
There really should be a separate, dedicated, thread for AshBMs... just sayin.
 
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Hyperwarp

Captain
Question -

Has the Standard Missile intercepted Silver Sparrow type target missile?

The key thing about the Sparrow family is that it can simulate several types of warheads including maneuvering warheads. IIRC, land-based systems (not sure, PAC3? Arrow-3? THAAD? o_O) have intercepted Sparrow target missiles but what about the sea-based system. Has the Standard Missile series intercepted MaRV? If not, then only time they can intercept DF-21D, DF-26 type ASBM is during mid-course. Current Chinese ASBM are vulnerable during mid-course, however, once ASBM which have HGV are introduced this weakness will be mitigated.

Sparrow family:

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taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Was that award in reference to the DF-21D or DF-26?

We can also see the R-37 air-to-air missile with a speed of Mach 6, which is comparable to the speed of the DF-21D.
That would suggest that radar and control surfaces for the DF-21D is technically feasible.

But the Jupiter and Thor IRBMs had a reentry velocity of Mach 13, which looks comparable to the DF-26
The award only mentioned the development of technologies, not any specific missile types which is normal practice.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
From NHK new detail is revealed on missile test via vincent
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US: China test-fired missiles into South China Sea
Thursday, July 4, 0:18

A US military official has told NHK that China has test-fired missiles from the mainland into disputed waters in the South China Sea for the first time.

The official said that the Chinese military launched a total of six missiles from the mainland on Sunday, US Pacific Time, and they landed in two separate areas in the South China Sea.

The official said the US military is now analyzing the types of missiles that were fired.

NBC News reported that China tested anti-ship ballistic missiles that are believed to possess a precision strike capability against carriers at sea.

China's maritime authorities had warned ships not to enter a designated area north of the Spratly Islands in the South China Sea from June 29 to July 3 due to a military exercise.

The US has made clear that it opposes moves by China to militarize the South China Sea.

The US has frequently sent vessels to areas of the South China Sea claimed by China in what are known as "Freedom of Navigation" operations.

Observers say China's missile tests are aimed at keeping the US in check.
 
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