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Brumby

Major
I'm curious to know what makes the the Russian sub more complicated and advanced than their US counterparts.

The Yasen class are very cabable boats and also very expensive to produce and hence there is only one in active service and the Yasen M currently in sea trials. It has taken the Russians close to 20 years to get to this point. Whether the program is sustainable due to cost is an unknown and time will tell. The Yasen class is considered comparable to the US Virginia class but in different ways. It can dive deeper down to 600m and has a much bigger weapons load. The Virginia is more silent as it uses pump jet whereas the Yasen still uses conventional propeller. Pump jet reduces cavitation noise which are prominent during acceleration and deceleration.
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
Yasen still uses conventional propeller.
It's an interesting question. I have no ways to confirm this, but my personal suspicion is what Russian SSGN places premium on continious/dash speeds in certain situations(rush to launch position), even if it means noice and risk.

Otherwise, it's just strange to not have pumpjet when russian boomers have it.
 

gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
The Yasen is a design which started out a long time ago. In Soviet times.
The electronics systems were all upgraded, but certain mechanical components might have stayed as they were.
I have heard some analysts say that the difference between pump-jet and propeller isn't quite clear cut though.

The Russians are working on the Husky submarine design which is supposed to be multi-role.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Oh for goodness sake. Seawolf more advanced? No Seawolf is older it’s louder to.
Virginia class at full speed is quieter than Seawolf in port.

It is like saying " the Kuznetsov more advanced than the Nimitz, because it the later is older and on top of that the Nimitz is more than two times expensive .

And Virginia class tube launched compliment is up to 37 weapons in its torpedo room not 16.

Point is simple : virginia has 4 off 533mm weapon ready to launch,everything else in the torpedo room saving time back to base for replenishment, but will not make a difference during an attack on an enemy.

And with missiles it is even worst, because the only chance is a saturation attack, launching as many weapon as you can against a destroyer/ cruiser / carrier. Now, the Virginia has 16 subsonic missile for that, the Yassen has up to 48 subsonic AND supersonic.
Difference between the two is like between a destroyer and a bigger corvette/ smaller frigate.

The same mission needs 1 yassen or 2-3 virginia.
The main issues of Yasen is its super expensive at a time Russia can’t afford it. Hell it couldn’t afford it in 2008. They have openly talked of creating a spin off class of cheaper SSN boats.

Yeah the US built subs in the 90s and 2000s the US Could afford to the LA class was supposed to be super seeded by Seawolf class but as the Russian Navy wasn’t seen as a threat they Stopped building them after Three boats. And then started on Virginia class. Why because without the big Russian bear it was patrol missions.

Yasen Started building in 1993 but with the collapse of the Ruble work slowed but didn’t stop until 1996. When Russian tanks were pointed at Russians.
It started again in 2003 and then paused well the Russians in 2006 Refocused on building their new Ballistic missile Boat. Before 2008.
It wasn’t until 2011 that they could actually float Yasen
They are not getting a new boat a year or anything near as fast as Virginia class which by the way are replacing Los Angles class on a one to one basis. As there are huge gaps in production. With only 2 finished and 5 supposed to be finished between now and January 1 2021.
Few points:
-it is more expensive because it is more capable. True, Russia had the choice to make 3-4 Nimitz class carrier or 20-30 Virginia class equivalent instead of 8 Yassen. But looks like the bear saw more benefit from the highly capable submarines than from aircraft carriers / nuclear kilos .
-There is no cost constrain for a country. Russia can make way more weapon than today - question is the need, like in the case of every country - USA can have five time bigger military, all that it takes is to decrease the healthcare spending to the level of UK,or cut back the consumption of cars or whatever.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
The Yasen is a design which started out a long time ago. In Soviet times.
The electronics systems were all upgraded, but certain mechanical components might have stayed as they were.
I have heard some analysts say that the difference between pump-jet and propeller isn't quite clear cut though.

The Russians are working on the Husky submarine design which is supposed to be multi-role.
Pump jet has narrow operation regime, propeller wider.


Pump has a design speed, above that the housing slowing down the ship (and I am not sure if it will not increase the noise instead of suppress it).

Additional, the deep should has effect as well, if the submarine can dive deeper then it has the same advantages that you can expect from pump jet.

The pump jet does nothing else just increase the internal pressure, same effect like dive deeper.

I think it will make the propulsion more prone to battle damage as well.
 

Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
@Brumby: Regarding our S-400 discussion, it so happens that a rather authoritative source which all but confirms CEC-ski has recently popped up.

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Machine translation of the relevant paragraph:

Sergey Druzin (deputy general designer Almaz-Antey) said:
The fundamental difference between the s-400 system from the previous complexes is its noise immunity and fire performance. Number of simultaneously engaged targets from the s-400 is much more than the s-300. Is provided including thanks to the emergence of new intelligent missile with control system, which allows it to use the widest range of application modes: active homing and use of information from external sources, other radars. The system provides fire also over-the-horizon targets – those that are not visible to radar, but information about them is available.

It doesn't explicitly link these capabilities to the 40N6 missile, but I think we may safely connect the dots.

As for Yasen-M, this seems relevant:

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Interestingly, that means it does closely parallel many aspects of the Virginia class in terms of sonar, countermeasures and VLS capacity (think upcoming Block V with LAB and added aft payload module). Of course, the enormous size and massive torpedo tube battery are more akin to the earlier Seawolf class, reflecting a similar emphasis on blue-water ASW/ASuW as opposed to littoral ASW/SOF in Virginia. So, minus the pump jet Yasen-M is a design which combines certain traits of both post-688i USN attack submarine classes - the Virginia Blk. V concept executed on the basis of a Seawolf hull, if you will (kind of puts the steep price tag into perspective!). And regarding pump jets, it's worth noting that the Russians are no strangers to this tech, c.f. Borei: it's absence is therefore likely a deliberate choice, not due to lack of ability. Not sure what the rationale is, but while it could perhaps be attributed on the original Yasen to its prolonged construction freeze (meaning it no longer reflected the latest state of the art in Russia when it was finally launched), that is not a logical explanation on Yasen-M any more.

As for silencing, I would not be so sure that Seawolf really is worse than Virginia - the larger hull diameter allows for more elaborate silencing measures, especially in the reactor section. Virginia was to cut the high cost imposed by these very features (on top of a re-focus toward land-attack and littoral missions) and while technological progress may have allowed some of the drawbacks to be offset, it seems a long shot to assume it actually improved.

A surprising amount of information on the internal rafting and encapsulation arrangements of the Yasen class has been leaked, and it looks pretty impressive.

P.S.: I guess the adoption of a Lira-like conformal sonar array on another submarine class also indicates the problems experienced with this system on the Lada class have finally been solved satisfactorily, which is good news.
 
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@Brumby: Regarding our S-400 discussion, it so happens that a rather authoritative source which all but confirms CEC-ski has recently popped up.

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Machine translation of the relevant paragraph:

...
let me offer my loose translation:
Принципиальное отличие системы С-400 от предыдущих комплексов – это ее помехозащищенность и огневая производительность.
The main improvements in S-400 over older systems are jamming resistance and an increased fire potential.


Количество одновременно обстреливаемых целей у С-400 значительно больше, чем у С-300.
The S-400 can simultaneously engage many more targets than the S-300.


Это обеспечено в том числе благодаря появлению новой интеллектуальной ракеты с системой управления, которая позволяет ей использовать широчайший диапазон режимов применения: и активное самонаведение, и использование информации от внешних источников, других радиолокаторов. Система обеспечивает обстрел также загоризонтных целей – тех, которые не видны для радиолокатора, но информация о них в системе имеется.
This is also due to the new 'smart' missile with control systems enabling its use in various guiding modes: both through an active radar homing and by using an input from external sources and other radars.


Система обеспечивает обстрел также загоризонтных целей – тех, которые не видны для радиолокатора, но информация о них в системе имеется.
The S-400 can also engage over-the-horizon targets; those are not detectable by an S-400's radar, but their data are available.


LOL any pro please tell me the translation of интеллектуальной ракеты
 
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bruceb1959

Junior Member
Registered Member
let me offer my loose translation:

The main improvements in S-400 over older systems are jamming resistance and an increased fire potential.



The S-400 can simultaneously engage many more targets than the S-300.



This is also due to the new 'smart' missile with control systems enabling its use in various guiding modes: both through an active radar homing and by using an input from external sources and other radars.



The S-400 can also engage over-the-horizon targets; those are not detectable by an S-400's radar, but their data are available.


LOL any pro please tell me the translation of интеллектуальной ракеты


Google throws up 'Intellectual rocket' lol - my money would be on intelligent or smart :D
 
it appears
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is approaching Havana, Cuba as I write:
Clipboard515.jpg


sorry shouldn't have cut out the scale here


now used google to see (says 'YouTube - 26 mins ago')
 
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