CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

kriss said:

Is that one super block or two under the shelter? Wouldn't that be too big to move to another assembly site if that is one integrate piece.

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Unsure if it is two super blocks or one super-super block.

It might be too big to move, or it might not be. I suppose we will know in due time once we know if it is one super-super block or not.

Another image, another excuse for measurements.
Numbers around the carrier represent pixels counts on the lines drawn.
Bigger numbers near the top and bottom of the image are also pixel counts, divided by smaller numbers which are meters, as measured in GE.

Interesting to note is the rather big difference in ratios. Using the bottom of the image structure, each 3.58 pixels represent one meter. But using the road marks on the top of the image, one gets just 2.67 to 2.78 pixels per meter.

So, unless I've made some error somewhere, there is somehow some distortion due to lens or whatever. I will thus go with a dangerous assumption: for the mid body lines, which are roughly in the middle of the two size references, i will use an average of the ratios: 3.15 pixels per meter. For the lines on the ship more to the left of the image, reading 102 and 58 pixels, I will use a ratio closer to the road reference, at 2.95 per pixel.

Using those, I get the following: the line that's 102 pixels long may be 34.6 meters long. That might be the width of the hull at that point.
The line that's 115 pixels long may be 36.5 meters long.

I do believe the small curved red line on the ship that i added is the elevator opening. The size and the curve fits. Even the height from the ground seems to fit. The only thing not fitting is the width of the hangar. Which appears to be just 19.7 meters at that point. Unless that's some smaller part of the hangar which is unusually narrow, and rest of the hangar is wider, that width doesn't mesh with any other known hangar dimension of known carriers comparable in size.

Anyway, feel free to provide different measurements.

Totoro said:

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Another image, another excuse for measurements.
Numbers around the carrier represent pixels counts on the lines drawn.
Bigger numbers near the top and bottom of the image are also pixel counts, divided by smaller numbers which are meters, as measured in GE.

Interesting to note is the rather big difference in ratios. Using the bottom of the image structure, each 3.58 pixels represent one meter. But using the road marks on the top of the image, one gets just 2.67 to 2.78 pixels per meter.

So, unless I've made some error somewhere, there is somehow some distortion due to lens or whatever. I will thus go with a dangerous assumption: for the mid body lines, which are roughly in the middle of the two size references, i will use an average of the ratios: 3.15 pixels per meter. For the lines on the ship more to the left of the image, reading 102 and 58 pixels, I will use a ratio closer to the road reference, at 2.95 per pixel.

Using those, I get the following: the line that's 102 pixels long may be 34.6 meters long. That might be the width of the hull at that point.
The line that's 115 pixels long may be 36.5 meters long.

I do believe the small curved red line on the ship that i added is the elevator opening. The size and the curve fits. Even the height from the ground seems to fit. The only thing not fitting is the width of the hangar. Which appears to be just 19.7 meters at that point. Unless that's some smaller part of the hangar which is unusually narrow, and rest of the hangar is wider, that width doesn't mesh with any other known hangar dimension of known carriers comparable in size.

Anyway, feel free to provide different measurements.

Click to expand...

We've had similar estimates trying to guess the beam of the hull before using aerial photographs and measuring known features on the ground via satellite and then extrapolating.

But IMO that method introduces additional measurement errors that is not present when directly measuring hull beam using satellite photo like what the CSIS pic a few weeks ago did.
As far as beam estimates are concerned, I think the ~41m measured on the CSIS photo is our best estimate for now until we one day get more up to date satellite pictures on GE of JN so we can measure beam ourselves, without this flawed extrapolation methodology.


As for the elevator and hangar:
I will have to say, I don't think the opening in that location is necessarily for an elevator. Looking at the height of the hull so far, I think the highest part of the hull that we see so far is the floor of the hangar deck, rather than the roof of the hangar deck.

I agree that the two openings at those locations look like they could be for elevators, however it just doesn't seem to jive with what we we can see of how high the current hull modules are.
That said, I'd be happy to be proven wrong -- because if those two openings are for elevators, then it would suggest that 003 is intended to have three elevators and not two (i.e.: the two openings we see are at the aft end of the ship, meaning there would be an opening on the more forward starboard side of the ship for an elevator as well).
If those two openings really are for elevators, you could try estimating the "hangar width" at that location using the assumption that the beam at the widest part of the hull is ~41m and see what you get instead.

Of course, we'll see what future image bring us. Height of the structure is hard to asses due to perspective and lack of reference. Though, IF we assume those are decks in the walls of the structure near the alleged elevator opening, we could size up everything to that. Though it's also hard to find just how much height there is from one deck floor to another on a combat ship, or even better, a carrier. I tried using some cruise ship figures and most seem to be around 9 to 10 feet between two floors. Using those, and using the visible height from the right most part of the ship structure which has a clear cross section, I am getting 17 to 18.5 meters, measured from the bottom of the ship's hull to the current highest level of the ship. The alleged elevator opening sits a bit lower, at 11.5 to 12.5 meters from the bottom of the hull. As far as i can tell, on nimitz the elevator opening starts at 9-10 meters above sea level, depending on the load of the ship. And another 11 or so meters of below waterline height. While nimitz does have its deck higher, it's possible that a smaller carrier with a different design would lack, for example, a whole floor, a whole one deck level compared to nimitz, and have a somewhat shallower draft. Which would then make the two measurements quite comparable.

Totoro said:

Of course, we'll see what future image bring us. Height of the structure is hard to asses due to perspective and lack of reference. Though, IF we assume those are decks in the walls of the structure near the alleged elevator opening, we could size up everything to that. Though it's also hard to find just how much height there is from one deck floor to another on a combat ship, or even better, a carrier. I tried using some cruise ship figures and most seem to be around 9 to 10 feet between two floors. Using those, and using the visible height from the right most part of the ship structure which has a clear cross section, I am getting 17 to 18.5 meters, measured from the bottom of the ship's hull to the current highest level of the ship. The alleged elevator opening sits a bit lower, at 11.5 to 12.5 meters from the bottom of the hull. As far as i can tell, on nimitz the elevator opening starts at 9-10 meters above sea level, depending on the load of the ship. And another 11 or so meters of below waterline height. While nimitz does have its deck higher, it's possible that a smaller carrier with a different design would lack, for example, a whole floor, a whole one deck level compared to nimitz, and have a somewhat shallower draft. Which would then make the two measurements quite comparable.

Click to expand...

I had a look at some of the old photos of 002 and of Ford and QE class when they were all under construction to get a gauge of how many decks high each part of the hull is.

So it seems like below the level of the floor of the hangar deck, QE, Ford and 002 all have something like 6 decks below it.
Meanwhile, it seems like the height of the hangar from the hangar floor to hangar ceiling seems to be three decks high, based on pictures of Ford and 002 under construction at the time.


Based on the photos we have of 003 so far, it basically depends on how many decks high the current hull modules are.
It is very possible that the current 003 modules we see actually do include the hangar floor and two decks of the hangar walls (but not the hangar roof level yet).

Totoro said:

Of course, we'll see what future image bring us. Height of the structure is hard to asses due to perspective and lack of reference. Though, IF we assume those are decks in the walls of the structure near the alleged elevator opening, we could size up everything to that. Though it's also hard to find just how much height there is from one deck floor to another on a combat ship, or even better, a carrier. I tried using some cruise ship figures and most seem to be around 9 to 10 feet between two floors. Using those, and using the visible height from the right most part of the ship structure which has a clear cross section, I am getting 17 to 18.5 meters, measured from the bottom of the ship's hull to the current highest level of the ship. The alleged elevator opening sits a bit lower, at 11.5 to 12.5 meters from the bottom of the hull. As far as i can tell, on nimitz the elevator opening starts at 9-10 meters above sea level, depending on the load of the ship. And another 11 or so meters of below waterline height. While nimitz does have its deck higher, it's possible that a smaller carrier with a different design would lack, for example, a whole floor, a whole one deck level compared to nimitz, and have a somewhat shallower draft. Which would then make the two measurements quite comparable.

Click to expand...

Basically, if those openings are actually for elevators, then it means that the current "cross section" of the hull that we see is something similar to this cross section block of the QE class:


I.e.: we can see how there are 6 decks from the keel of the ship up to the floor of the hangar deck, and from the floor of the hangar deck up we can see two decks, which include an opening for the elevator however we can see the elevator opening is not fully "high" or complete (i.e.: one additional deck height to "complete" the elevator opening).


For 003, the question is whether it's possible that the current modules that we see could conceivably be 8 decks high from the bottom of the keel to the uppermost part of the hull we see so far, which would match the QE class picture above.



Now, I would concede that it's difficult to fully measure the number of decks or the height of the carrier's cross section, given the angle of the photo that is taken at.
For example, I believe last year or earlier this year we had this picture taken on the ground of the hull modules when they had yet to begin assembly with each other into the current super block(s), showing that each hull module could potentially be quite "high" although we aren't able to see the absolute keel of each module which is what we'd like.
It is also interesting to note that there seems to be a colour difference where the two uppermost decks of the modules seem to be more of a lighter pink/grey colour than the part of the module underneath it which is dark red, which could certainly indicate some kind of difference in construction phase during fabrication which in turn could relate to the function of the relevant decks.



However, I do think at this stage we can safely estimate that 003 like 002 before it will have 6 decksbetween the floor of the hangar and the keel of the ship, which we are able to discern in this picture despite the obfuscation:


Ford class of course had a similar number of decks between the floor of the hangar and the ship keel as well.

Indeed, seems as if the method of construction is a bit different ... at least in the rear section, there are already walls and if I see it correctly, you can see, where the ponton will dock for transferring the modules to the dry dock.

However, one big reason why I think what we currently see only shows up to the hangar deck (and for why the openings therefore cannot be for elevators), is because of the "plug in" modules on the side in the staging area.

Those modules are obviously meant to be "plugged in" or "filled in" inside the middle of the hull where we currently see the big central openings.

It looks like they are about 4-5 decks high, meaning they would likely sit flush with the topmost level of the current hull as we see it. Putting it another way, it would be impossible for the openings to represent elevators as that would mean we would expect the "plug in" modules on the side to be shorter than they actually are, such that their "roofs" would become the "hangar deck floor". However they're too tall for that to be possible.



edit; actually forget it. This is way too annoying to try and analyze. As good as the recent pictures have been, the details aren't good enough to decisively tell what exactly is going on in terms of deck levels, in terms of whether the openings could be for elevators, and so forth.
What we really need is a solid frontal cross section shot of the carrier from the ground, but obviously that's not going to be possible.

The best chance we will have is in the next half year or so when the carrier is expected to get transferred to the drydock where it will have to be uncovered and we can finally confirm whether the current work we see includes the elevator openings or not (and thus confirming the level of the hangar deck floor)

Wow wow wow

So much progress

The carrier might be finished before the port is fully dredged and fully ready for floating

Just kidding but you get my point

What we see, is the hold (hull under the waterline), the fourth and the third deck. The second deck and the main (hangar) deck are still missing. So we can't see any elevator openings.

*Anatomy of a carrier hull*



In other words: left side ready hull, right side what we see: