US F/A-XX and F-X 6th Gen Aircraft News Thread

Max Demian

Junior Member
Registered Member
The US Navy is putting a laser weapon on a Burke.

Any information on what kind of laser? Last update a read (month old) pointed out that Burke's don't have the electrical power reserves to field a high power laser.
 

Skywatcher

Captain
It's an engine not a plane. It's also not developed to demonstrate anything. It's a prototype.
It's a tech demonstrator, since as any first year in project development can tell you, a prototype is the first build of something that is planned for service.

Now the XF-9 has thrust of 15 tons, which would leave a sixth generation fighter underpowered. The F-3 will probably have a MTOW of 50 tons (as s rough benchmark, the F22 is 25% heavier than the F15) and the JASDF will probably want the F3 to have an engine with a full thrust of 20 tons.
 

anzha

Senior Member
Registered Member
Any information on what kind of laser? Last update a read (month old) pointed out that Burke's don't have the electrical power reserves to field a high power laser.

The USS Preble will get the first one, unless that changes. It will replace the RAM missile system. It is the HELIOS system. It will start at 60 kw and could be upgraded to 150 kw.

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I would venture to guess they are putting a big battery onboard to trickle charge to. A Tesla battery is 60 to 85 kwh. While there are efficiency significant losses - 90% loss, say - then you're looking at 8 1/2 minutes of continuous beam time for a 85 kwh battery pack when fully charged. Engagement time is far less than a minute per target.

That all said, this is getting wildly off topic. This is the 6th gen fighter thread, not the lasers on USN warships thread. My fault, tbh, but...let's steer this back. :)
 

Brumby

Major
Regarding lasers, there are a bunch of programs spread throughout the services appropriated with about $3 Billion in funding. The USN has HELIOS, the USAF has SHIELD and even SOCOM has its own program with lasers planned aboard AC-130J.

The Defense Department has set a new plan to achieve a ten-fold increase in directed-energy technology over the next decade with potential to power lasers for combat on land, at sea and in air and space and identified existing contract vehicles to begin executing this new Laser Scaling Plan with fiscal year 2019 funds.

Michael Griffin, under secretary of defense for research and engineering, has set targets to scale high-energy laser technologies to significantly greater power levels than currently available, including targets of 300 kilowatts by 2022, 500 kilowatts by 2024 and a 1 megawatt laser "several years later." Current electrically pumped, high-energy laser technologies, depending on the type, are capable of producing between 25 kilowatts and 150 kilowatts.

"The [Laser Scaling] Plan strategy is to focus first on increasing [High Energy Laser] power with size/weight in the range for land/surface platforms, and then to focus on reducing size and weight and increase the efficiency into the range for air/space programs," according to a version of the
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, dated April 8 and published in Federal Business Opportunities April 15. "This approach has lower risk than would an attempt to scale up on all metrics simultaneously."
.
Source : Inside Defense April 17, 2019

U.S. Fighter Jets Could Soon Be Armed With Lasers
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A laser weapon, called The Self-Protect High-Energy Laser Demonstrator (SHiELD) passed a crucial test last month. Designed to defend U.S. Air Force aircraft from inbound air-to-air missiles, SHiELD torched several missiles in flight. Defensive lasers could revolutionize aerial warfare and lead to a second revolution with even more profound implications for air warfare—offensive lasers.

Air-t0-air missiles, guided missiles launched by an aircraft at another aircraft, were first developed in the 1940s. Previously, aircraft could only shoot down other aircraft within range of their guns, but the advent of jet engines made aircraft faster and able to swiftly move out of gun range. A guided weapon that could chase down even jet aircraft became a priority, and soon air forces of the world were fielding both infrared and laser-guided weapons.

On April 23,
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, a ground version of a laser that could someday protect military aircraft was tested at White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico. The Demonstrator Laser Weapon System, a ground-based surrogate for the Self-Protect High-Energy Laser Demonstrator, or SHiELD, shot down several aerial-launched missiles. The goal of the SHiELD program is to equip a F-15 Eagle fighter jet with a defensive laser pod by 2021.

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, Lockheed Martin is developing the 2021 weapon system. The pod will involve a fiber laser in the “tens” of kilowatts, while Northrop Grumman is developing the beam control system. Boeing will develop the pod that carries the laser weapon.

Active defense lasers like SHiELD promise to seriously upset air warfare. Flares, chaff, and electronic warfare are three ways to prevent an air-to-air missile from hitting its target. They’re also passive defenses, making no attempt to actually down the missile but instead to confuse the missile and prevent it from hitting the target. Active defense, actually shooting down incoming missiles, is so hard that until now, nobody has bothered: the small size of such missiles and the possibility that they could come from all directions makes them difficult to shoot down.

Until now. If the program continues to be successful, an aircraft armed with SHiELD would be protected from incoming missiles like never before. Enemy aircraft might need to fire multiple missiles at laser-protected fighters in order to overwhelming their defenses. Aircraft could press their attacks, not taking evasive action, knowing that a weapon like SHiELD protects them.
 
inside:
U.S. Fighter Jets Could Soon Be Armed With Lasers
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"Russian and Chinese air forces are
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very long range air-to-air capability, with the Vympel R-37M (NATO: AA-13A “Axehead”) missile and the PL-XX missiles. These missiles would be used to down American tanker and AWACs-type aircraft, seriously degrading the fighting abilities of U.S. and allied warplanes, or forcing them to operate farther behind friendly lines. SHiELD could at least partially negate the threat posed by these missiles."

even somebody from the target group (kids who like to read and fanbois) might ask how a laser would work through clouds against "very long range air-to-air capability"
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Laser it in the space of a few KM before termination of the kill cycle like an active defense system.

And seriously Jura Kids and fanboi??

Anyway this is part of why I suspect the next generations of Tanker and AEW will be Low Observable and it Drones.
 

anzha

Senior Member
Registered Member
inside:even somebody from the target group (kids who like to read and fanbois) might ask how a laser would work through clouds against "very long range air-to-air capability"

First off, you need to curb the tone, Jura. Cuz, dude, seriously, most of us have been treating you with respect and replying politely. You're not doing yourself any favors or going to convince anyone of your position by acting this way.

That said, how does it handle the Vympel et al? First off, most clouds stop at about 20k ft ( 6,000 m). Stay above that and you'll have plenty of time to shoot something.

Ideally - and I am very skeptical of this - shield was supposed to be put in a pod to be carried by an F-15. If it works - again quite skeptical you can get a milgrade laser in a pod that size - then an awacs or tanker should be able to carry that too. Which case, the tankers and awacs can shoot down the missiles targetting them even without a fighter being close enough to intercept.

As TE noted, it would be largely be meant as terminal defense anyways. Shooting down a missile would be at no further than 30 miles (48 km). The cost of the missile will be far, far higher than the cost of the energy to shoot it down. That's what I meant about the change in calculus.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Tone, please.



Actually, no. The Pentagon isn't some magic place that things just come into being because they are a good idea. Quite the contrary. The army especially for some reason. The Army managed to fsck up a lot of procurements in the last 20 years.

That said, lasers on Strykers would be useful for AD. Especially shorad. The THEL program used a 100 kw laser to shoot down mortars, 155mm, katyushas, etc. A 50 kw laser could still take down drones, mortars, and anything not flying very fast or at least not fast enough for its required engagement time. I have to tread carefully on what is a useful engagement time for power. ;)

Solid state lasers have matured only recently. They could have 10 years ago, but the money just wasn't spent. After all, the Pentagon didn't think the Chinese or Russians would have peer capabilities, like J-20 or Su-57, operational by 2020. Oops. At least half way. They were thinking of dealing with COIN rather than peer fights. What you buy for a peer fight is different than what you buy for fighting COIN. Lasers are pretty useless in Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq.

They were not a priority. That changed. Now they are. They are about 2 to 4 years out. Given Pentagon procurement speeds, that's very quick.

and to be honest you could make a case that 10 Su-57's or 20 J-20's really are NOT operationally significant?? I mean if you flew a hawk into the "chicken coop", whats gonna come up and fight?? it seems that there are complications? or at least a lack of real engagement, kind of like some of those Army projects you are talking about, it doesn't just happen... it takes a hell of a lot of money and hard work, and it takes even more to go around to all the "needy" programs...
 
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