Trade War with China

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Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
So...let me get this straight. China's economy will continue to expand at around 6% till the 2030s ? The curbing of the shadow lending sector is not going to negatively affect chinese economy (on the short term) ? That's... not exactly what i made myself to believe. I thought the Chinese economy, as it climbs the per capita income ladder, will see gradual gdp growth pace deterioration.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
So...let me get this straight. China's economy will continue to expand at around 6% till the 2030s ? The curbing of the shadow lending sector is not going to negatively affect chinese economy (on the short term) ? That's... not exactly what i made myself to believe. I thought the Chinese economy, as it climbs the per capita income ladder, will see gradual gdp growth pace deterioration.
Technically, nobody knows. Economies will slow down as they mature but they will hit a new normal. Where China's new normal lies or how fast we will reach it is not easily predicted. We are already seeing a very gradual decline in GDP growth in China, basically a soft landing, each year growing just a little less (by percentage, not absolute value) than last year but when that evens out and where it evens out at is unknown. Even then, a more mature Chinese economy will also experience spurts and variations from the new normal from time to time. To say it is 3.5% by 2030 is a very specific prediction.
 

gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
Eventually the GDP will grow at a much slower rate. But China is still far away from Western countries or even other Asian countries in GDP/capita. I see little reason why China would stop converging with those economies. Some analysts seem to compare China with Japan in the 1980s. But the thing is Japan has less than half the population of the USA.
Japan's economy simply stopped rising as they reached a similar level of GDP/capita as the US. China still has less than half the GDP/capita of Japan or South Korea. There is little reason to think China will stop growing before it converges.
 

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
Trump's tweet about using the tariff revenue to buy farmers crops and then giving it to the 3rd world is completely asinine. It'll just depress global agriculture prices and China will just buy that all up/cheaper.
 

mr.bean

Junior Member
Trump's tweet about using the tariff revenue to buy farmers crops and then giving it to the 3rd world is completely asinine. It'll just depress global agriculture prices and China will just buy that all up/cheaper.

Trump ''giving'' shit to third world countries??? hahahaha.....omfg
 

A.Man

Major
Eventually the GDP will grow at a much slower rate. But China is still far away from Western countries or even other Asian countries in GDP/capita. I see little reason why China would stop converging with those economies. Some analysts seem to compare China with Japan in the 1980s. But the thing is Japan has less than half the population of the USA.
Japan's economy simply stopped rising as they reached a similar level of GDP/capita as the US. China still has less than half the GDP/capita of Japan or South Korea. There is little reason to think China will stop growing before it converges.
Do a math! ADD all population of per capita GDP higher than China countries together, they have less population than China. If China reached world per capita average GDP, 50% of today above average population will come poor people of the world.
 

Nutrient

Junior Member
Registered Member
Do a math! ADD all population of per capita GDP higher than China countries together, they have less population than China. If China reached world per capita average GDP, 50% of today above average population will come poor people of the world.

Not necessarily. Economics is not a zero-sum game. If China wins, and wins the right way, other countries do not have to lose. Win-win is possible, regardless of what Trump thinks.

For example, Russia and China lead the world in fast-neutron breeders. These reactors use Uranium 238, which is far more abundant than U-235, which means we will all have energy for thousands of years, without emitting carbon dioxide. Standards of living will be high. And we'll have lots of time for looking into fusion. So what comes out of Russia and China will greatly benefit the world, even as these two countries grow. Win-win.
 
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now
It's Trump vs. Xi in the China trade war -- and it's personal
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Neither Donald Trump
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can afford to blink.
A
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between two rival presidents could ensure that the escalating trade war across the Pacific may last longer than anyone expected.
The showdown is now no longer just a confrontation between China and the US -- one a rising power challenging the long established dominance of the global economic leader. It's become a test of wills between two of the world's most powerful men, each of whom has political interests that are more likely to deepen the conflict than to quickly ease it.
Both view themselves as strongmen. Both have imposed their power on their domestic governing systems by force of will. Both have the authority to trigger global shock waves -- as they did when
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and China's multi-billion dollar retaliation on Monday.
Both see the honor of their nation at stake at a crucial moment in the history of US-China relations, as the emerging competition between two great powers becomes sharper than ever.
While Trump has said the two sides
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last week before China backed out, the gulf in intention between the two giant economies will complicate future talks.
Trump -- lambasting Chinese intellectual property theft and support for state industries -- believes he has to change the global trading system itself because it is a massive ripoff for the United States.
And Trump thinks the strength of the US economy gives him an edge and the ability to pin the blame for the impasse on Xi.
"We are right where we want to be with China. Remember, they broke the deal with us & tried to renegotiate," Trump tweeted on Sunday.
Xi sees US demands as an infringement on Chinese sovereignty and has an incentive to keep globalization intact since China has profited handsomely from the status quo in a stunning 20-year growth explosion.
The Chinese leader is no keener to climb down than Trump.
"China feels it does not have to give in," Max Baucus, a former US ambassador to China told CNN's Kate Bolduan on Monday.
"Add to that, saving face is a big deal in China. President Xi Jinping does not want to appear to have backed down. I don't think Americans understand that," the former Montana senator said.
While Trump said Monday
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-- which is now looming as a massively consequential meeting -- the gaps may be too wide to bridge by then.
Trump's ideology
One reason why the dispute could go on for a while is because Trump seems to sincerely believe he is winning.
Convinced of the primacy of the healthy US economy, willing to shrug off a day's losses on the stock market and wielding his favorite tariff tool, Trump is not at all fazed.
"We're in a very good position, and I think it's only going to get better," Trump said Monday.
Trump is often ideologically supple and could turn on a dime on the dispute. But he's held deep seated beliefs about China's
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and has long advocated a protectionist remedy. This is one issue that he's shown that he really does believe in. After all, he seems ready to gamble on the health of the US economy -- his best political asset heading into his 2020 reelection race.
The President's hawkish comments on Monday might have been an attempt to calm tumbling markets. But they also entrenched a position from which it will be hard to abandon without being embarrassed.
For now at least, before damage to the economy and consumer budgets from the deepening trade war becomes obvious, Trump may believe he will prosper politically from standing up to China.
And after accusing Beijing of
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, he will want to make good on his promises before 2020.
Trump is also using the China confrontation to emphasize his contrast with former Vice President Joe Biden, the apparent 2020 Democratic front-runner.
Biden complained Monday that Trump was approaching the trade spat all wrong by showing "a lot of bravado, no action."
The President however has already charged that Biden is too weak to take on Xi -- and clearly enjoys the contrast.
"China is DREAMING that Sleepy Joe Biden, or any of the others, gets elected in 2020. They LOVE ripping off America!" Trump tweeted over the weekend.
Trump's big gamble
Trump's foreign policy bets are often motivated by a desire to shore up his domestic standing. And
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that Trump is desperate to deliver on his self-image as a master deal maker, another reason it will be tough for him to fold.
The big political risk for the President is that a prolonged trade war of attrition begins to erode US growth, devalues 401ks in a market correction and tarnishes the economic feel good factor and undermines Trump's boasts of a new era of prosperity.
Voters could tire of paying an effective sales tax on goods like iPhones, toys and foodstuffs, despite Trump's assurance that China and not US consumers foot the bill for tariffs.
US exporters will take a hit from China's tariffs and US manufacturing will also suffer.
Rick Helfenbein, CEO of the American Apparel and Footwear Association, said his industry was "beyond freaked."
"(We are) sitting around feeling like we have just bought tickets for the second sailing of The Titanic, the only difference now is we know exactly where the icebergs are," Helfenbein said on CNN.
The pain of farmers already suffering from Chinese retaliatory tariffs -- especially those in the swing state Midwest -- could also deliver Trump a 2020 shock.
Punishing Beijing could also have other spillover effects. If China is slowed, other economies, including US export markets in Asia and Europe, could suffer and hurt US jobs and prosperity.
"If we get the full throttle of all tariffs it does risk a recession," Diane Swonk, chief economist of Grant Thornton, told CNN's Brooke Baldwin on Monday.
Such a doom-laden scenario is one reason why some analysts still bet Trump will close a deal after a period of posturing.
He has, after all, frequently escalated a crisis, then stepped back -- while declaring incremental changes to an existing agreement as a massive victory for the United States.
The scenario eventually eased the crisis over the renegotiation of the North America Free Trade Agreement and offers a blueprint for a deal at the G20 should Trump's political calculation over the China trade war change.
Xi's choice
The confrontation has already revealed a truth that reflects an important geopolitical evolution: Beijing is not afraid of the United States.
Trump spent the weekend warning China on Twitter that it would be "hurt very badly" if it didn't do a deal.
By Monday morning, he had his answer when
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Like Trump, Xi is not immune to political pressures.
Although he is the most dominant Chinese leader in decades, he cannot completely ignore complicated internal Communist Party dynamics. Chinese leaders are always wary of any changes to social conditions -- that could be brought on by a slowing economy -- that could cause public resentment and translate into political activity.
China is also sensitive to its own experience under colonialism and proud of its rise as a key regional power and global player. So there is no circumstance under which Xi could allow himself to be seen as bowing to bullying from any Western leader, let alone an American president as combative as Trump.
The importance of Chinese pride in the dispute was reflected in
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. The paper accused the US of misjudging China's "strength, capability and willpower" and of taking a "risky and impetuous decision."
Baucus said that Americans underestimated China's size, power and leverage. He also said that Beijing was playing a far longer game than Washington and, with the leadership's iron grip on dissent, could afford to absorb the painful side effects of a trade war.
"I think those who think the US (has) leverage do not really fully understand China. China thinks long term. China is an authoritarian government. Their party controls everything," he said.
Both Xi and Trump know the other has much to lose. The question now is the age old diplomatic conundrum: Can they forge an outcome that gives both the option to declare victory?
 

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
*Note this was from last year, I guess it was at Yuan's low point.

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China Is Paying for Most of Trump's Trade War, Research Says

That’s the conclusion of a
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from EconPol Europe, a network of researchers in the European Union. U.S. companies and consumers will only pay 4.5 percent more after the nation imposed 25 percent tariffs on
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, and the other 20.5 percent toll will fall on Chinese producers, according to authors Benedikt Zoller-Rydzek and Gabriel Felbermayr.

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do you guys agree with the math?

Here's the paper:
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Tariff Revenues and Welfare Effects We compute the total economic effect of import tariffs as the sum of the red and green areas in Figure 1. This can be interpreted as the monetary value that Chinese firms and US consumers would be willing to (jointly) pay to avoid these tariffs. The aggregated welfare losses in China and the US are around USD 1.6 billion. Only about one third, or USD 522 million, of these losses are sustained by US consumers (green triangle in Figure 1), while the remainder falls to Chinese exporting firms. To evaluate the total welfare effects for US consumers and firms, we have to consider potential tariff revenues. Most of the tariff incidence falls on Chinese firms. It is their declining profit margins that would pay for a large share of the tariffs, i.e. the red rectangle in Figure 1. These tariff revenues can be used to compensate for the welfare losses of US consumers. In total, the tariff revenues of the tariffs introduced by President Trump amount to USD 22.5 billion, of which USD 18.9 billion are to be paid by Chinese firms. This implies net welfare gains of USD 18.4 billion for US consumers. Final Remarks Through its strategic choice of Chinese products, the US government was not only able to minimize the negative effects on US consumers and firms, but also to create substantial net welfare gains in the US. The US governmentimplemented an optimal tariff strategy as discussed by Irwin (1996). As the trade conflict escalates, however, the US administration may not be able to restrict its selection to products with high import elasticities; and US welfare might decrease as more of the tariff incidence falls on US consumers. Moreover, China’s next countervailing duties will be chosen in a similar way, namely in a bid to shift the tariff burden onto US exporters.
 
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