PLA Anti-Air Missile (SAM) systems

Tetrach

Junior Member
Registered Member
There is no correlation with the invention of black-powder and chinese experience in today's technologies.

Moreover, neither the HQ-9 nor the HQ-16 are totally chinese. The S-400's sale also proves that China doesnt have the capability to create its own major long range missile. Everything the chineses know is more or less based on experience with Soviet engineering.

The chineses are still behind the US and russians in rocket engineering, let alone anti-air missiles. I'm waiting major breakthroughs like the HQ-29 to change my opinion on this.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
If Buk-M3 truly doubles HQ-16's range without sacrificing much, it would be well worth the purchase. I really doubt this claim but if true, it would appear that Russian rocket technology is ahead of even the US.

No not exactly. The Buk or the HQ-16 happens to be awfully short range for a missile of its size and weight. These missiles are the same weight and size as the Standards or SM-2MR or Medium Range. Compare missiles by weight first before looking at the range. These three are 700kg missiles, but the SM-2MR is said to reach ballistically up to 167km range.

The Buk ranges have gone from 40km, then 50km, then the HQ-16 reaches 70km, but I think this has nothing to do with the missile itself. but the "slant range". This means a straight line from the radar set and the launcher to the target. Because these missiles are SARH, their operational range is limited to the range of the target illuminating radar.

By allowing the missiles to have ARH or Active Radar Homing, the missile is no longer tied to the range of the ground based target illumination radar. This means the missile can reach its full potential in flight.

I would expect the HQ-16B or 16C to have a great improvement in range once the seeker is replaced with an ARH.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
There is no correlation with the invention of black-powder and chinese experience in today's technologies.

Moreover, neither the HQ-9 nor the HQ-16 are totally chinese. The S-400's sale also proves that China doesnt have the capability to create its own major long range missile. Everything the chineses know is more or less based on experience with Soviet engineering.

The chineses are still behind the US and russians in rocket engineering, let alone anti-air missiles. I'm waiting major breakthroughs like the HQ-29 to change my opinion on this.

Did I say any correlation ?
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
There is no correlation with the invention of black-powder and chinese experience in today's technologies.

Moreover, neither the HQ-9 nor the HQ-16 are totally chinese. The S-400's sale also proves that China doesnt have the capability to create its own major long range missile. Everything the chineses know is more or less based on experience with Soviet engineering.

The chineses are still behind the US and russians in rocket engineering, let alone anti-air missiles. I'm waiting major breakthroughs like the HQ-29 to change my opinion on this.

You can make missiles go farther by making them longer and wider so they can contain more propellant weight. Its not rocket science...even though it is. Do you wonder why the Chinese and the Russian VLS systems on the ships are built so big?

The S400's 40N6E is an enormous monster at 1,835 kg in weight. The HQ-9, with a slant range of 200km according to Wiki which links to other sources, is a 1300kg missile. 40N6E also outranges many US SAMs too, like SM-6, but then compare the weight, the SM-6 is at 1500kg.

The PLAAF's PL-15 is one of the longest ranged AAMs now, and its spooking the US.

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It outranges the Russian R-77, and it would take the K-77M to match it. But the K-77M is still in development while the PL-15 is already operational.

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Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
There is no correlation with the invention of black-powder and chinese experience in today's technologies.

Moreover, neither the HQ-9 nor the HQ-16 are totally chinese. The S-400's sale also proves that China doesnt have the capability to create its own major long range missile. Everything the chineses know is more or less based on experience with Soviet engineering.

The chineses are still behind the US and russians in rocket engineering, let alone anti-air missiles. I'm waiting major breakthroughs like the HQ-29 to change my opinion on this.

About the HQ-9 and 16, those are unsubstantiated claims. HQ-9 has publicly beaten competitors like patriot, Aster 30 and late S-300 variant.

China already have the HQ-9 and it’s variants for a long range missile. S-400 sale “proves” about as much about incapability to make a LRSAM as Gotland sale “proved” US incapability to make quiet submarines. If something is cheap, from an ally, usable and provide important details about potential adversaries, only an idiot would turn it down out of misguided pride.

Neither the Soviets nor the Americans have yet to field a missile in the class of the PL-15, or the PL-XX in advanced development.

Then there’s the question of missile smarts. Tbf, the S-400 “survived” the PLA’s jamming test regimen and hit a target cruise missile, but we don’t know if they threw all EW tricks at it or just a little bit.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
China's already completed 2 separate long range SAM types? Been hearing leaks about program testing for years now. HQ-2x was the widely talked about one. Purchasing S-400 is like purchasing Su-35. These are still excellent world class platforms in their own right. They come from a geopolitical ally who has never denied the PRC arms sales in its history even when relations were bad. Contributing to keeping the brains that develop these alternative source of potentially life saving weapons is clearly a good thing. Of course if these platforms are considered worthwhile to build in numbers, they will be reverse engineered and no further purchases will be made. But that's the deal, either sell some or sell none. Every time Russian manufacturers sell to China, they know the reverse engineering risk is high. Despite this, most promote their products and still welcome even small sales. Selling a few and getting it copied is better than selling none I suppose since China does not threaten Russia, these military contracts are politically promoted too.
 

Tetrach

Junior Member
Registered Member
Hmm a lot of responses,

You can make missiles go farther by making them longer and wider so they can contain more propellant weight. Its not rocket science...even though it is. Do you wonder why the Chinese and the Russian VLS systems on the ships are built so big?

The S400's 40N6E is an enormous monster at 1,835 kg in weight. The HQ-9, with a slant range of 200km according to Wiki which links to other sources, is a 1300kg missile. 40N6E also outranges many US SAMs too, like SM-6, but then compare the weight, the SM-6 is at 1500kg.

As you said, it is rocket science. Such large missiles like the 40N6E or 9M82/3 have enhanced performances thanks to a different architecture and technology which will eventually require larger dimensions; not just because they are "bigger". In fact, they go further away, but also faster and higher. There is no shame in making large missiles, just a proof that you master the technology.

China also seems to have extremely limited mobile anti-ballistic capability while the US and russians lead this field.We are yet to see the HQ-19 operationnal, even if the program is 3 decades old.

The PLAAF's PL-15 is one of the longest ranged AAMs now, and its spooking the US.

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It outranges the Russian R-77, and it would take the K-77M to match it. But the K-77M is still in development while the PL-15 is already operational.

Neither the Soviets nor the Americans have yet to field a missile in the class of the PL-15, or the PL-XX in advanced development.

So far so good nothing particular in the middle kingdom; We are yet to this range comparable to the R-37. PL-15 seems to be comparable to AIM-120 D or the Meteor.
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Hmm a lot of responses,



As you said, it is rocket science. Such large missiles like the 40N6E or 9M82/3 have enhanced performances thanks to a different architecture and technology which will eventually require larger dimensions; not just because they are "bigger". In fact, they go further away, but also faster and higher. There is no shame in making large missiles, just a proof that you master the technology.

China also seems to have extremely limited mobile anti-ballistic capability while the US and russians lead this field.We are yet to see the HQ-19 operationnal, even if the program is 3 decades old.





So far so good nothing particular in the middle kingdom; We are yet to this range comparable to the R-37. PL-15 seems to be comparable to AIM-120 D or the Meteor.

Russian anti-ballistic capability? Are you talking about S-500? The old Soviet stuff's not useful or usable these days. But if we're talking vaporware, China's got HQ-2X that's supposed to be the equivalent of S-500 BMD capability. And that's just one line of SAMs which may have been in service for a while already. Let's not forget Chinese ASAT demonstration proved the ability is more than concrete. There is simply no point in BMD against the big three nuclear powers. I'd say China's ability to achieve higher LEO, fast pace, kinetic kill back in 2007 demonstrates far superior BMD ability than Russia. HQ-16 having 70km equivalent range compared to previous Buk's 50km goes towards showing having better fuel and rocket technology.

R-37? That's basically an unproven Phoenix missile that's designed to maybe engage large unmaneuverable targets at best. Let's not forget that Russian air doctrine still places emphasis on WVR simply because they've never had any real success with BVR unlike the USAF. If these long range R-77s and R-37s actually worked, China (and anyone who could) would have purchased thousands. Even back in the 90s China began to desperately develop its own replacements for R-77s so J-11B can use Chinese ordinance. The only Russian A2A missile that was proven successful is the Archer. It's not hard to make long range missiles. The hard parts lie in their seekers, ECCM, guidance, and energy management.

As for PL-15 it is nothing like Meteor. Maybe equivalent to 120D but it has dual pulse motors for better energy management. Meteor has better range, better energy, and ramjet powered. PLAAF's analogue of the Meteor is PL-21 if I recall. It's not the thin long range missile seen on J-16 years ago but with ramjet intakes.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Hmm a lot of responses,



As you said, it is rocket science. Such large missiles like the 40N6E or 9M82/3 have enhanced performances thanks to a different architecture and technology which will eventually require larger dimensions; not just because they are "bigger". In fact, they go further away, but also faster and higher. There is no shame in making large missiles, just a proof that you master the technology.

China also seems to have extremely limited mobile anti-ballistic capability while the US and russians lead this field.We are yet to see the HQ-19 operationnal, even if the program is 3 decades old.





So far so good nothing particular in the middle kingdom; We are yet to this range comparable to the R-37. PL-15 seems to be comparable to AIM-120 D or the Meteor.

Have you been living under a rock?

The DN-3 is in excess of anything America or Russia have achieved in ABM, being able to hit missiles in orbit before they separate.

Likewise, the HQ-19 is an older but still leading platform in taking down less complicated IRBM and SRBM.

Making bigger missiles is no problem, but comparing the HQ-22 weight class Buk M3 to the tiny HQ-16 is simply unfair. They are for different things.

The R-37 is not usable against anything but the most unmanueverable planes. Again comparing apples and oranges. PL-15s strength is in it’s large range combined with large no escape zone for any target, no matter how maneuverable. It achieves that through advanced guidance technologies that are yet to appear on any other missile except the Meteor, which I suppose is a direct counterpart.

But the PL-15 is also “old(er)” news. The PL-XX is where current development is at.
 

Tetrach

Junior Member
Registered Member
Russian anti-ballistic capability? Are you talking about S-500? The old Soviet stuff's not useful or usable these days. But if we're talking vaporware, China's got HQ-2X that's supposed to be the equivalent of S-500 BMD capability. And that's just one line of SAMs which may have been in service for a while already. Let's not forget Chinese ASAT demonstration proved the ability is more than concrete. There is simply no point in BMD against the big three nuclear powers. I'd say China's ability to achieve higher LEO, fast pace, kinetic kill back in 2007 demonstrates far superior BMD ability than Russia. HQ-16 having 70km equivalent range compared to previous Buk's 50km goes towards showing having better fuel and rocket technology.

R-37? That's basically an unproven Phoenix missile that's designed to maybe engage large unmaneuverable targets at best. Let's not forget that Russian air doctrine still places emphasis on WVR simply because they've never had any real success with BVR unlike the USAF. If these long range R-77s and R-37s actually worked, China (and anyone who could) would have purchased thousands. Even back in the 90s China began to desperately develop its own replacements for R-77s so J-11B can use Chinese ordinance. The only Russian A2A missile that was proven successful is the Archer. It's not hard to make long range missiles. The hard parts lie in their seekers, ECCM, guidance, and energy management.

As for PL-15 it is nothing like Meteor. Maybe equivalent to 120D but it has dual pulse motors for better energy management. Meteor has better range, better energy, and ramjet powered. PLAAF's analogue of the Meteor is PL-21 if I recall. It's not the thin long range missile seen on J-16 years ago but with ramjet intakes.

The S-300V4 and S-400 already have limited anti-ballistic capabilities, which are better than everything the chineses field to this day, since they actually operate no mobile anti-ballistic assets. S-500 is the paradigm of the serie; It actually exists, compared to the HQ-2X. I notice that you don't even know its designation but still extrapolate on its capabilities; Quite proffesionnal ;)

"It's not hard to make long range missiles" yeah right, that's why they chineses still have not fielded anything comparable to the R-37 or R-33E.

Have you been living under a rock?

The DN-3 is in excess of anything America or Russia have achieved in ABM, being able to hit missiles in orbit before they separate.

Yes, but while living under a rock, I have been able to understand how ABM defence works, compared to you it seems...

In fact what you describe as the capability "to hit missiles in orbit before they separate" is literrally the principle of EVERY SINGLE Heavy ABM defence. It's called mid-course interception, and it's not a particularity of the chinese asset: guest what "GMD", the US equivalent, means ? Ground-Base Midcourse Defense.

Nothing particular for the PL-15: "large range combined with large no escape zone for any target" is something you can see in basically every other comparable missiles.
 
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