China Flanker Thread II

Status
Not open for further replies.

plawolf

Lieutenant General
J-11Bs in DACT with F-7PGs


Oh man... I wish there was a translation for this

Lol, I cannot believe the Pakistanis really gave the PLAAF J11s a call sign of ‘thug’.

The documentary gave a surprising amount of detail about the exercise.

Some stand out points for me.

1) The PAF pilots managed to very accurately assess the radar characteristics of the PLAAF J11Bs, so when they approached, they employed a very tight formation such that the 4 F7PGs were only showing up as a single target on the Chinese radars.

In the exercise, this meant the PLAAF Flankers could only engage one of the 4 in BVR. The PLAAF pilots also guessed that the PAF were using close formation.

This is an interesting target denial tactic to mitigate the F7’s lack of BVR. Although I have some reservations about just how effective this would be in real combat.

Would the F7s still maintain their close formation once their RWR start screaming radar lock? If they break too early, they give the game away and allow the enemy to target them all at BVR. But break too late and a single enemy BVRAAM might take out the whole flight.

I am not sure if the programme edited out some steps and/or got things jumbled up, because going by it’s narrative, the PLAAF Flankers didn’t take a BVR shot (no reason given as to why). Also, the commentary sometimes didn’t really fit with the flight display at times. My guess is that they edited out/censored a lot of the tactically relevant parts for opsec, and stitched what they were allowed to broadcast into a story good enough for the average casual viewer.

Others can give a true translation of how the programme narrated the encounter, but below is my own take based mostly on the flight display and common sense.

The PLAAF pilots guessed the PAF planes were employing close formation, so the PLAAF lead pushed ahead to trigger the break while his wingman hung back.

The plan was most likely for lead to break the pack and immediately double back before anyone could engage them (by taking advantage of both the Flankers superior fuel load and the F7s lack of BVR); this would then allow for the wingman to lock onto and engage multiple targets at once at BVR after the PAF birds broke formation.

The first part of the plan seemed to have worked, but after the PAF F7s broke formation, they split wildly to deny multiple simultaneous BVR shots, thereby presenting a ‘targeting dilemma’ for the PLAAF wingman.

The PLAAF wingman only managed to get one missile off at <40 km (no word on if that achieved a ‘kill’ or not) before he get engaged by the F7(s).

But by then, the PLAAF lead had re-engaged, and killed a PAF F7 threatening his wingman. At which point the exercise timed out as a draw.

2) Both sides were on the same radio frequency in case of emergencies. The Chinese ground controllers were mostly only observing, but the PAF pilots were getting and giving a lot of messages from their ground controllers to the point where the Chinese pilots couldn’t hear each other for a time (the part with the garbled static noise was probably an extract recording of what the radio waves were like).

Although that is hardly surprising given the vast capabilities difference before the J11B and the F7.

The J11B had the radar and avionics to allow their pilots to get a good enough tactical view to make their own, informed decisions. The F7’s radar and avionics could not come close to offering the same level of situational awareness, so their needed more ground support until they can get to WVR.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Lol, I cannot believe the Pakistanis really gave the PLAAF J11s a call sign of ‘thug’.

The documentary gave a surprising amount of detail about the exercise.

Some stand out points for me.

1) The PAF pilots managed to very accurately assess the radar characteristics of the PLAAF J11Bs, so when they approached, they employed a very tight formation such that the 4 F7PGs were only showing up as a single target on the Chinese radars.

In the exercise, this meant the PLAAF Flankers could only engage one of the 4 in BVR. The PLAAF pilots also guessed that the PAF were using close formation.

This is an interesting target denial tactic to mitigate the F7’s lack of BVR. Although I have some reservations about just how effective this would be in real combat.

Would the F7s still maintain their close formation once their RWR start screaming radar lock? If they break too early, they give the game away and allow the enemy to target them all at BVR. But break too late and a single enemy BVRAAM might take out the whole flight.

I am not sure if the programme edited out some steps and/or got things jumbled up, because going by it’s narrative, the PLAAF Flankers didn’t take a BVR shot (no reason given as to why). Also, the commentary sometimes didn’t really fit with the flight display at times. My guess is that they edited out/censored a lot of the tactically relevant parts for opsec, and stitched what they were allowed to broadcast into a story good enough for the average casual viewer.

Others can give a true translation of how the programme narrated the encounter, but below is my own take based mostly on the flight display and common sense.

The PLAAF pilots guessed the PAF planes were employing close formation, so the PLAAF lead pushed ahead to trigger the break while his wingman hung back.

The plan was most likely for lead to break the pack and immediately double back before anyone could engage them (by taking advantage of both the Flankers superior fuel load and the F7s lack of BVR); this would then allow for the wingman to lock onto and engage multiple targets at once at BVR after the PAF birds broke formation.

The first part of the plan seemed to have worked, but after the PAF F7s broke formation, they split wildly to deny multiple simultaneous BVR shots, thereby presenting a ‘targeting dilemma’ for the PLAAF wingman.

The PLAAF wingman only managed to get one missile off at <40 km (no word on if that achieved a ‘kill’ or not) before he get engaged by the F7(s).

But by then, the PLAAF lead had re-engaged, and killed a PAF F7 threatening his wingman. At which point the exercise timed out as a draw.

2) Both sides were on the same radio frequency in case of emergencies. The Chinese ground controllers were mostly only observing, but the PAF pilots were getting and giving a lot of messages from their ground controllers to the point where the Chinese pilots couldn’t hear each other for a time (the part with the garbled static noise was probably an extract recording of what the radio waves were like).

Although that is hardly surprising given the vast capabilities difference before the J11B and the F7.

The J11B had the radar and avionics to allow their pilots to get a good enough tactical view to make their own, informed decisions. The F7’s radar and avionics could not come close to offering the same level of situational awareness, so their needed more ground support until they can get to WVR.
I’d be curious to know if that kind of tight formation defensive strategy would work against AESAs with much higher resolutions...
 

Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
@plawolf Thanks for that translated summary and analysis, much appreciated. It did seem like there was a lot of useful detail in this doc, although I'm sure OPSEC constrained most of it. I ended up watching all of it even without understanding what they were saying. (I did notice the "THUG" callsign! lol.) I hope they keep making more of these docs.
 

Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
J-10C participated in the latest Shaheen exercise. You'll know in a year or so.

That's the best thing about these joint exercises, they keep getting more complex with each iteration. In the coming years, both sides will start fielding AESAs and involve more support and EW platforms, speeding up the tactical development and learning curve for both Air Forces.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
Make of it what you will. Janes is by no means a wholly-credible source but it does bring some fresh perspective.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Reuben F Johnson, Kiev - Jane's Defence Weekly

Key Points
  • China's J-11D fighter programme appears to be intact and making progress
  • The J-11D may now effectively be in a fight for funding with the J-20 programme
Two major Chinese fighters, the J-11D and the J-20, appear to be competing for prioritised funding, despite the two platforms appearing to have distinctly differentiated missions, according to recent information provided to Jane's by Chinese sources.

Some of the details of these programmes have come to light via a special documentary produced by the China Flight Test Establishment (CFTE) at Xi'an Yanliang airbase. The film was released to celebrate the 60th anniversary of the facility's founding. The documentary showed close-up shots of the Shenyang J-11D still in factory primer and described it as "one of the latest aircraft to successfully pass through the programme of state flight testing". Prominently displaying the J-11D in this manner is a clear signal that the programme has not been cancelled, as previously rumoured, and that production of this comprehensively modernised version of the J-11 will go ahead, according to Chinese industry sources.

The same sources had earlier stated that the combined costs of continued testing and finalising both the J-11D design and the configuration of the J-20 stealth fighter, which is designed and built by Shenyang's rivals at Chengdu Aerospace in Sichuan Province, was partly why the advanced J-11 was believed to be on the cancellation list.

Another reason the J-11D was thought to be in jeopardy was the notion that the Shenyang design team appeared to have another more pressing assignment: the development of a carrier variant of the FC-31 fifth-generation multirole fighter. Several previous reports have stated that the need for a carrier-capable fighter to replace one of Shenyang's older products, the J-15, is becoming more pronounced.

Could someone who has watched the video clip confirm whether or not it was actually announced that the J-11D has passed state flight testing?
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Make of it what you will. Janes is by no means a wholly-credible source but it does bring some fresh perspective.



Could someone who has watched the video clip confirm whether or not it was actually announced that the J-11D has passed state flight testing?

A better question is whether "passing state flight testing" has any relation at all as to whether the PLA are interested in it (or that "production will go ahead").
I think Jane's is overreaching here.

We've all known that J-11D flight testing is continuing for the last few years, but there's been no indication the PLA are interested in buying it. Needless to say one doesn't have to be too creative to come up with reasons for why China might still be interested in test flying J-11D airframes even if they weren't interested in mass producing them...
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
A better question is whether "passing state flight testing" has any relation at all as to whether the PLA are interested in it (or that "production will go ahead").
I think Jane's is overreaching here.

We've all known that J-11D flight testing is continuing for the last few years, but there's been no indication the PLA are interested in buying it. Needless to say one doesn't have to be too creative to come up with reasons for why China might still be interested in test flying J-11D airframes even if they weren't interested in mass producing them...

I'm interested in what "industry sources" Janes claims to have. Previous articles turned out to be merely rehashed rumors gleaned from blogs and forums and whatnot.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I'm interested in what "industry sources" Janes claims to have. Previous articles turned out to be merely rehashed rumors gleaned from blogs and forums and whatnot.

My faith in Jane's ability to accurately identify reliable individuals is not particularly high. My faith in Jane's ability to accurately prognosticate future developments even if they were given reliable sources, is not particularly high either.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top