Russian efforts to sell the Su-57/PAK FA to China

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SinoSoldier

SinoSoldier

Colonel
Bltizo said:
I'm not going to engage all of these points you raised because I agree with all of them.

I especially agree with the fact that China has not shown any interest or intent in Su-57 and this is a story being spun buy journalists who don't know better.

However the fact that China did end up buying a small number of Su-35s where very similar arguments were presented, means to me that I think at this stage we cannot rule out a possibility of a purchase of a small number of Su-57s some point in the future for similar reasons to why Su-35 was bought. (I.e. for su-57 it would be Tvc and kinematics of a certain kind on a VLO aircraft, among other reasons)
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I understand your point, but the advantages of buying Su-35s were much clearer than those of buying Su-57Es at this stage. Unless there is a magical/secretive piece of technology invisible to the naked eye that the Su-57 sports, I don't see (at the superficial level at least) what the Su-57 offers that a modified FC-31 or J-20 don't.
 
SinoSoldier

SinoSoldier

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Phead128 said:
I don't understand why PLAAF bought the Su-35S in such insignificant numbers. Did China get unlimited access to the Su-35S engines??
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Probably to refine its doctrine with regard to supermaneuverable 4th-generation fighters, as well as to provide the H-6 with an escort that has sufficient range to do the job. And of course, there is DACT value to these airframes since they can simulate IAF Su-30MKIs.
 
Blitzo

Blitzo

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SinoSoldier said:
I understand your point, but the advantages of buying Su-35s were much clearer than those of buying Su-57Es at this stage. Unless there is a magical/secretive piece of technology invisible to the naked eye that the Su-57 sports, I don't see (at the superficial level at least) what the Su-57 offers that a modified FC-31 or J-20 don't.
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I don't think the advantages of buying Su-35s were necessarily that much clearer than what the potential future purchase of buying Su-57s may be, but that is beside the point.


The bottom line is that we cannot rule out the possibility that the PLA might buy a number of Su-57s sometime in the future. I certainly agree that it's unlikely and we have no indication that China is even interested in it at this stage. However the purchase of the Su-35s (which posed very similar logistical, cost and integration issues relative to the contemporary PLA 4th gen fleet at the time) means that we cannot be able to rule out the possibility of an eventual Su-57 purchase sometime in the future despite similar complexities.
 
D

Deleted member 13312

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Comparing the Su-35 issue to the Su-57 is really like comparing apples to oranges. There are several reasons why
1) The Su-35 at the time was a mature and completed product which was in active service in the Russian Air Force, in comparison to the Su-57 which for all intents and purpose stuck in a perpetual limbo of a development mire.
2) The Su-35 price tag and maintenance requirements are reasonable enough for countries like Vietnam and India to consider purchasing them in large numbers. So it would make sense for China to purchase some Su-35 for DACT.

On the issue on China getting the Su-35 for the engines which apparently alot of people like to harp on, I only have this to say : If the whole Su-35 purchase was solely for the engines, then Russia had cut itself one of the worse deals I have seen in the history of military sales. For a measly 2 billion USD, Russia would had given away an potentially very lucrative money tree in the form of allowing China to license produce the engines for their own fighters, the amount of Chinese fighters that would need an engine of such a caliber would be such that it will make that 2 billion dollar price tag look like mere chicken feed. Ultimately why China bought the Su-35 is one that can never be satisfactorily answered.

Back to the Su-57 topic, whether China will get the Su-57 is still an open question. Though I am leaning towards nay rather then yay, but China will have less of a reason to get the Su-57 for its engines given that the Su-57 uses a derivative of the one found on the Su-35S already. As for the issue of DACT, China already have the J-31 which can mimick the F-22 and F-35 even better than the Su-57 due to its closer external similarities. So the only role I can think off is the extremely remote possibility that another country with issues with China would buy the Su-57.

Russia would like alot of things, and China patronizing its military hardware would be one of them. But liking one thing does not make it real.
 
MwRYum

MwRYum

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The mere fact that the Russians cut China out of the PAK-FA (now Su-57) for the longest period of its R&D time, make the whole "Russia opens Su-57 for export to China" utter nonsense.

Remember, China had poured a good portion of their own resources into the J-20 programme and it has progressed into the LRIP.
 
B

Biscuits

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Phead128 said:
I don't understand why PLAAF bought the Su-35S in such insignificant numbers. Did China get unlimited access to the Su-35S engines??
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India has 1 credible fighter (until Rafale arrives) and that is Su-30MKI. Using a Su-35, you can simulate a Su-30MKI very well. It also grants full access to all Indian top systems. China’s own Flankers all use other avionics and EW.

Also the Su-35 offer was put up in a way that made refusing hard.

1. It was cheap.

2. No strings attached.

3. Implicit threat that they will proliferate around China and therefore PLAAF need them for “preparation”.

So there was both a carrot and a stick in the approach used to sell them. If China had turned down the “carrot”, it would make them look distrustful/dismissive towards Russia, which makes the alliance look weak. And the “stick” of the fighters proliferating among neutral countries without PLAAF having first hand access would impact China.
 
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TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

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I thought the PLAAF operated Su30 before the Su35.

A lit of people here have pointed to DACT. Let me point this out rarely do you actually see DACT units flying the exact threat and being blunt it's not all that nessisary to fly.
DACT can be done by having J20 face off against a production J31 and visa vs. That's one of the advantages of having two programs. The main point isn't to exactly replicate potential foes but to force the pilot to deal with a foe with differing characters hence "Dissimilar".
Although sampling other EW is good you don't need that in DACT.
 
B

Biscuits

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TerraN_EmpirE said:
I thought the PLAAF operated Su30 before the Su35.

A lit of people here have pointed to DACT. Let me point this out rarely do you actually see DACT units flying the exact threat and being blunt it's not all that nessisary to fly.
DACT can be done by having J20 face off against a production J31 and visa vs. That's one of the advantages of having two programs. The main point isn't to exactly replicate potential foes but to force the pilot to deal with a foe with differing characters hence "Dissimilar".
Although sampling other EW is good you don't need that in DACT.
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Su-30MKI is actually closer to Su-35 than to Su-30MKK

Otherwise, you are right.
 
Air Force Brat

Air Force Brat

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Viktor Jav said:
Comparing the Su-35 issue to the Su-57 is really like comparing apples to oranges. There are several reasons why
1) The Su-35 at the time was a mature and completed product which was in active service in the Russian Air Force, in comparison to the Su-57 which for all intents and purpose stuck in a perpetual limbo of a development mire.
2) The Su-35 price tag and maintenance requirements are reasonable enough for countries like Vietnam and India to consider purchasing them in large numbers. So it would make sense for China to purchase some Su-35 for DACT.

On the issue on China getting the Su-35 for the engines which apparently alot of people like to harp on, I only have this to say : If the whole Su-35 purchase was solely for the engines, then Russia had cut itself one of the worse deals I have seen in the history of military sales. For a measly 2 billion USD, Russia would had given away an potentially very lucrative money tree in the form of allowing China to license produce the engines for their own fighters, the amount of Chinese fighters that would need an engine of such a caliber would be such that it will make that 2 billion dollar price tag look like mere chicken feed. Ultimately why China bought the Su-35 is one that can never be satisfactorily answered.

Back to the Su-57 topic, whether China will get the Su-57 is still an open question. Though I am leaning towards nay rather then yay, but China will have less of a reason to get the Su-57 for its engines given that the Su-57 uses a derivative of the one found on the Su-35S already. As for the issue of DACT, China already have the J-31 which can mimick the F-22 and F-35 even better than the Su-57 due to its closer external similarities. So the only role I can think off is the extremely remote possibility that another country with issues with China would buy the Su-57.

Russia would like alot of things, and China patronizing its military hardware would be one of them. But liking one thing does not make it real.
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There's no real mystery regarding China's purchase of a batch of 24 Su-35's, they want capability NOW, not 4 years from now, or some point out into the future. The Su-35 offers a top end 4++ generation fighter aircraft with OVT and a good radar....

So the Su-57 offers up the same kind of "high end" fighter aircraft with OVT for super-maneuverability, some advanced avionics, designed to enhance L/O, and for good measure an internal weapons bay, with the possibility that in the future it will have a very powerful high thrust powerplant.

So that is actually more "capability now", the communist Chinese have been buying Russian military hardware and technical assistance from the get-go, its been a very successful arrangement for both parties, and with the US as a common op-for, this will further cement this long standing partnership...

so will it happen? there's really no way to know, but there are benefits for both teams if it does....
 
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