Naval missile guidance thread - SAM systems

Do you honestly expect to get an informed answer to a question that is one of the most closely guarded secrets of the USN?
I've been reading the Pentagon's press-releases for last several years, seen it boasting about anything it could LOL

so 'pew! pew! pew!' several drones at ones would've been jaw-dropping, I guess

That said, the radar system on the latest E-2Cs can allegedly track 2,000+ targets. If the Aegis system cannot manage this many targets as well then it seems like a wasted capability on the part of the E-2C, which by implication suggests to me that Aegis can in fact handle this many targets, especially since the E-2C is equipped with CEC.
LOL I meant something practical (what's really happened in live-fire exercises), not what's the size of their arrays in Fast Fourier Transform
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
I've been reading the Pentagon's press-releases for last several years, saw it boasting about anything it could LOL

so 'pew! pew! pew!' several drones at ones would've been jaw-dropping, I guess

LOL I meant something practical (what's really happened in live-fire exercises), not what's the size of their arrays in Fast Fourier Transform
Meanwhile, I also have information about the alien spaceship housed at Area 51, as well as the identity of the second shooter during the Kennedy assassination.
 
Sep 16, 2018
I've been reading the Pentagon's press-releases for last several years, seen it boasting about anything it could LOL

so 'pew! pew! pew!' several drones at ones would've been jaw-dropping, I guess

LOL I meant something practical (what's really happened in live-fire exercises), not what's the size of their arrays in Fast Fourier Transform
Iron Man where are you

"A limited Baseline 9.C1 IAMD operational assessment
suggests that DDGs can simultaneously support limited air
defense and ballistic missile defense missions within overall
radar resource constraints. This assessment is supported by
a single successful live firing event, managed by the Missile
Defense Agency, which included simultaneous live firing of
SM-2 and SM-3 missiles against threat-representative targets
in an IAMD engagement. More stressing IAMD scenarios are
planned for ACB-16 and ACB-20 testing"
:
FY18 NAVY PROGRAMS
Aegis Modernization Program
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actually
Iron Man was last seen:
10w 4d ago


 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
Sep 16, 2018
Iron Man where are you

"A limited Baseline 9.C1 IAMD operational assessment
suggests that DDGs can simultaneously support limited air
defense and ballistic missile defense missions within overall
radar resource constraints. This assessment is supported by
a single successful live firing event, managed by the Missile
Defense Agency, which included simultaneous live firing of
SM-2 and SM-3 missiles against threat-representative targets
in an IAMD engagement. More stressing IAMD scenarios are
planned for ACB-16 and ACB-20 testing"
:
FY18 NAVY PROGRAMS
Aegis Modernization Program
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


actually
Iron Man was last seen:
10w 4d ago
I am here. A lot of work and family stuff going on for the last several months; recently I have more free time and I'm currently trying to slog through all the intervening posts. OMG there's so much stuff to read....
 

Brumby

Major
For the Type 346A (and 346B after it), I suspect that its square geometry may reflect that the C band arrays have been deleted and that the entire thing is now an S band array, which of course would have consequences for the guidance of the SAMs that 052D uses.

Can you please elaborate on your C and S band reasoning and why they would have direct consequences for guidance.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Can you please elaborate on your C and S band reasoning and why they would have direct consequences for guidance.

An S band only MFR on a ship without other means to illuminate targets (whether they are dedicated illuminators like AN/SPG-62s or Orekhs -- or Thales APAR type radars or other X band phased array radars which can provide illumination -- or in the case of the 052C's type 346 having a C band component for illumination or control of its missiles), means the guidance of the missiles would likely have to be some form of active radar homing instead.


That's assuming you're aware of the general engagement cycle that most modern naval SAM systems have; from detection/tracking+ launch --> midcourse guidance --> terminal engagement.
Basically, for the last part of "terminal engagement," S band radars are not enough and you either need a dedicated illuminator on a ship (for SARH missiles) or your missile has its own seeker (for ARH missiles).
Other things like datalink channels and combinations of the above for TVM guidance also are additional factors but the above is a rough back of the napkin kind of explanation.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
C-band is not generally used for missile targeting guidance. Except for one missile --- Raytheon's Patriot missile and the MPQ-53 system.

img4231.jpg

Then when the Chinese air defense radars like HT-233 and the SJ-321 were revealed to be using C-band rather than the X-band the S-300's Flap Lid and Tombstone uses, analysts concluded that the HQ-9 and HT-233 were copying the Raytheon system, including the Patriot's guidance system using C-band illumination. This despite the HQ-9 rocket frame is more similar to the 5V55 missile frame of the S-300 system, and that the HT-233 has similarities to Flap Lid and Tombstone as well, in particular with their horn feeds.

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When the naval versions of the HQ-9 were revealed, it is believed that it should follow the land version and use a C-band illumination and guidance. So it goes that there has to be, or needs to be a C-band illuminator within the Type 346 radar on the Type 052C, given the ship's absence of any external indication of such a device.

The danger to all this, is that this might be a myth in the making, and it doesn't help because of Jane's, white papers, and other defense media perpetuating the same narrative over and over again, that it seems passed as fact. The only thing that is officially revealed about the missile are information displayed with placards on defense exhibits for their export versions.

IMG_6569.jpg photo_0001_2018-11-05_DVRPLLH44T8E0001NOS.jpg

The second image shows that it is not the HQ-9B/FD2000B that is first mentioned with the active homing seeker, but the original HQ-9/FD2000 itself.

That is as far as the official information goes and the only bit of official information available.

Here is another example of how a misconception can happen. This involves the SJ-321, which is a copy of the HT-233 and used to support the HQ-12 missile, also known as KS-1.

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Specifications (CASIC):

Operating band: C (G/X) band
Radar cross section: 2m2
Maximum detection range: ≥120km
Minimum detection range: 3km
Operational performance: Altitude: 0.05~27km
Slant range: 5~70km (120 km)
Maximum operational airspace: Azimuth: 0~360º (mechanical rotation range)
-30º~+30º (electrical scanning range)
Elevation: -1º~+70º (electrical scanning range)
Target capability:

Guide 4~8 missiles to intercept 4 targets at the same time

"The SJ-231 guidance station is an important constituent part and the operational command and control center of the KS-1A weapon system. It is used to detect and track the aerial target and control and guide the missile. The SJ-231 guidance station is an advanced guidance radar system and is developed according to the modern war characteristics and the modern air-defense combat requirements. During the development of the guidance station, many advanced techniques in the radar technique development since 1990s are applied to improve the technical performance of the SJ-231 guidance station to a new level."

Given this kind of language, this seems suggestive, or proof that the SJ-321 uses C-band for missile target illumination, like a semi active homing system or TVM. But one has to remember that these are written by people who are not native English speakers. The word "guidance" itself is very vague and can mean a lot of things.

The SJ-321 is used to guide the HQ-12/KS-1A missile, and it turns out this is how the missile really works as per official literature.

KS-1A-1.jpg

So guidance as it turns out, is command guidance for this particular missile and its radar set, a bit of a departure from MPQ-53 copy narrative. The radar set does not target illuminate for a seeker. Rather it tracks the target closely and tells the missile where to go at it.

CASIC-SJ-231-Engagement-Radar-KS-1A-1S.jpg

The preoccupation that missile guidance = SARH illumination can be very misleading, especially when you are trying to form "Chinese Aegis" is going to work like AEGIS which has SARH illuminators.
 
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