Chinese Radar Developments - KLJ series and others

jobjed

Captain
It is correct that in more recent PD radars look down range is no longer terribly different from look up range (APG-66 is hardly a representative radar any more these days, and the overlapping ranges for l/d and l/u performance respectively render those figures rather useless for comparison). Doppler filtering works extremely well nowadays.

So what that Chinese source implicitly tells us is that the J-16 radar effectively is slightly longer ranged (maybe 10 - 15%) than the Irbis in the Su-35 - fair enough. They both have about the same antenna diameter, they're both X-band (meaning the number of radiating elements and hence antenna gain will be very close) and, as the Bars/Irbis family of PESAs uniquely have an AESA-like distributed receive signal path, very similar receiver sensitivity. Assuming the J-16 AESA has a fairly typical per-element transmit power of around 10W and a TRM count of some 2000 modules (X-band, 0.9m diameter array) we get a transmitter power in the same 20kW ball park as the Irbis' centralized two-stage TWT (which however implies wave guide losses that don't accrue in an AESA). Makes sense, the available cooling and generator capacity (if that's the long pole in the tent) should also match closely, given the related airframe platforms.

Antenna gain similar, transmitter power similar (with an advantage for the AESA, due to not suffering wave guide losses), receiver sensitivity similar - radar range equation says they'll be close, lo & behold, they are. I don't see why this is such a big deal - there's nothing very much surprising about it, just basic physics.

1.15 times the range is 1.15^4 times the power, i.e. 75% more power. Yeah, 75% is pretty goddamn significant.

Also, "the available cooling and generator capacity (if that's the long pole in the tent) should also match closely, given the related airframe platforms" is not a given. The power generation on Russian Flankers is pretty bad coupled with a crappy APU. There have been a few articles in the Chinese blogosphere recently elaborating on this issue. It's also the reason why the PLAAF insists on rotating various J-11 units to Tibet; so they all have a chance to practice starting the engines in the thin air with a weak APU.

Chinese Flankers have new APUs that are a lot more powerful.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
It is correct that in more recent PD radars look down range is no longer terribly different from look up range (APG-66 is hardly a representative radar any more these days, and the overlapping ranges for l/d and l/u performance respectively render those figures rather useless for comparison). Doppler filtering works extremely well nowadays.

So what that Chinese source implicitly tells us is that the J-16 radar effectively is slightly longer ranged (maybe 10 - 15%) than the Irbis in the Su-35 - fair enough. They both have about the same antenna diameter, they're both X-band (meaning the number of radiating elements and hence antenna gain will be very close) and, as the Bars/Irbis family of PESAs uniquely have an AESA-like distributed receive signal path, very similar receiver sensitivity. Assuming the J-16 AESA has a fairly typical per-element transmit power of around 10W and a TRM count of some 2000 modules (X-band, 0.9m diameter array) we get a transmitter power in the same 20kW ball park as the Irbis' centralized two-stage TWT (which however implies wave guide losses that don't accrue in an AESA). Makes sense, the available cooling and generator capacity (if that's the long pole in the tent) should also match closely, given the related airframe platforms.

Antenna gain similar, transmitter power similar (with an advantage for the AESA, due to not suffering wave guide losses), receiver sensitivity similar - radar range equation says they'll be close, lo & behold, they are. I don't see why this is such a big deal - there's nothing very much surprising about it, just basic physics.
Those are a lot of assumptions...
 

Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
1.15 times the range is 1.15^4 times the power, i.e. 75% more power. Yeah, 75% is pretty goddamn significant.

Also, "the available cooling and generator capacity (if that's the long pole in the tent) should also match closely, given the related airframe platforms" is not a given. The power generation on Russian Flankers is pretty bad coupled with a crappy APU. There have been a few articles in the Chinese blogosphere recently elaborating on this issue. It's also the reason why the PLAAF insists on rotating various J-11 units to Tibet; so they all have a chance to practice starting the engines in the thin air with a weak APU.

Chinese Flankers have new APUs that are a lot more powerful.

Well, transmitter power per se isn't what gives you an advantage - range is, and the difference in this respect is likely to be in the rather modest neighbourhood indicated. It does go to show how much power non-AESA radars apparently waste in wave guide losses (which is a shaft-power overhead the engines need to supply).

As for APUs, legacy Flankers had two small APUs next to each engine that were little more than jet fuel starters, yes - the Su-35S has a conventional large APU on the spine however:

APU.png

(the inlet scoop is on the belly).

For radar operation this is irrelevant though, in up-and-away flight electricity is supplied by the engine generators.
 

Brumby

Major
I "choose" to use percentages because the relationship between look up and look down modes for different radars should be consistent.

The APG-66V1 has an absolute difference of 10nm between look up and look down range. APG-66V2 has an absolute difference of 12nm between look up and look down range.

Note how the absolute difference is greater in the APG-66V2 vs the APG-66V1, yet the ratio between look up vs look down remains the same. For both radars, the look up range is 33% higher than the look down range.
In order that any meaningful approach is used to analyse a subject matter, an understanding of it is important. In the case of lookup/look down the difference is associated with backscattering of the earth surface. Therefore due to the source for this difference even though as radar detection technology improved and correspondingly the range, the difference remain relatively constant. Applying a percentage approach would be misleading at best. In contrast, the head on/tail on detection as in the example of Zhuk AE is 130/60 km. The difference is more significant and typically we use a rule of thumb measure of 50-60% to determine tail-on if head-on is known. In this case the difference is not due to back scattering but doppler shift. In other words, the subject of analysis matters. .

I'm not conveniently choosing to omit anything, I just can't be bothered going back to the post and copying the exact comment every time I reply to you.

For the sake of discussion, pretend every time I talked about what he wrote, that I had written "it's substantially weaker than the current generation of Chinese AESAs" in those exact words, because it doesn't change my argument.
Don't worry. I am not hung up on Yankeesama's reference to the substantially weaker comment. I just wanted to make the point that such a reference cannot be attributed to detection range. There obviously can be other reasons like ECM features that influenced such a statement form the poster. I just don't know beyond speculating.

My main interest is to be able to make a reasonable determination of J-16's detection capability. I am fairly comfortable with my approach and the numbers derived based on the very limited information to work with. As such, I personally am drawing a number of conclusions from it.
1)The detection range in my view is impressive given it is China's first stab at the technology. It is my belief that this is equivalent to European standard but not at the US level.
2)The J-16 armed with PL-15 will be able to substantially capitalise that missile's range without requiring AWAC referencing.
3)Assuming all things being equal (quality of TR, packaging technology et al), the AESA on the J-10C detection range will be less than the 160/145 km baseline of the J-16. How much inferior is impossible to determine due to lack of applicable data to make any determination. This is simply based on size of aperture difference between a J-16 and J-10C. It is my belief it is about 1000 mm for the J-16 and 660 mm for the J-10C. Anyone who has better data on this please let me know. This does not mean that when the J-16 is matched against the J-10C, the J-16 will have a detection advantage i.e. first look. Their respective RCS also matters.
4)Assuming that the J-20 aperture size and the J-16 is somewhat similar and applying similar AESA technology, the J-20 will have similar detection range. However the J-20 will have a significant detection advantage against the J-16. This can be illustrated by the following assumptions. Say they have respective RCS profile of 3/5 m2 (J-16) and 0.1/0.5m2 (J-20). The J-20 can detect the J-16 at a range of 210/239 km. Conversely, the J-16 can detect a J-20 at 90/107 km. Obviously these numbers are meant to be illustrative only.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
There is much information hidden behind the seemingly weird numbering system within the MIC of PLA. Thank you for the enlightenment.


Note that Navy has its own numbering system:

Type 34X = Implies a fire control purpose (344, 345, 346, 347)
Type 36X = Implies a smaller search radar (360, 362, 363, 364)
Type 38X = Implies a larger searchc radar of FRESCAN design (381, 382)
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
In order that any meaningful approach is used to analyse a subject matter, an understanding of it is important. In the case of lookup/look down the difference is associated with backscattering of the earth surface. Therefore due to the source for this difference even though as radar detection technology improved and correspondingly the range, the difference remain relatively constant. Applying a percentage approach would be misleading at best. In contrast, the head on/tail on detection as in the example of Zhuk AE is 130/60 km. The difference is more significant and typically we use a rule of thumb measure of 50-60% to determine tail-on if head-on is known. In this case the difference is not due to back scattering but doppler shift. In other words, the subject of analysis matters. .


Don't worry. I am not hung up on Yankeesama's reference to the substantially weaker comment. I just wanted to make the point that such a reference cannot be attributed to detection range. There obviously can be other reasons like ECM features that influenced such a statement form the poster. I just don't know beyond speculating.

My main interest is to be able to make a reasonable determination of J-16's detection capability. I am fairly comfortable with my approach and the numbers derived based on the very limited information to work with. As such, I personally am drawing a number of conclusions from it.
1)The detection range in my view is impressive given it is China's first stab at the technology. It is my belief that this is equivalent to European standard but not at the US level.
2)The J-16 armed with PL-15 will be able to substantially capitalise that missile's range without requiring AWAC referencing.
3)Assuming all things being equal (quality of TR, packaging technology et al), the AESA on the J-10C detection range will be less than the 160/145 km baseline of the J-16. How much inferior is impossible to determine due to lack of applicable data to make any determination. This is simply based on size of aperture difference between a J-16 and J-10C. It is my belief it is about 1000 mm for the J-16 and 660 mm for the J-10C. Anyone who has better data on this please let me know. This does not mean that when the J-16 is matched against the J-10C, the J-16 will have a detection advantage i.e. first look. Their respective RCS also matters.
4)Assuming that the J-20 aperture size and the J-16 is somewhat similar and applying similar AESA technology, the J-20 will have similar detection range. However the J-20 will have a significant detection advantage against the J-16. This can be illustrated by the following assumptions. Say they have respective RCS profile of 3/5 m2 (J-16) and 0.1/0.5m2 (J-20). The J-20 can detect the J-16 at a range of 210/239 km. Conversely, the J-16 can detect a J-20 at 90/107 km. Obviously these numbers are meant to be illustrative only.


1. "First stab at the technology"? --- First Chinese AESAs were developed in the 1990s. The first deployed in the PLA was an artillery tracker back in the early 2000s. That must be good if you are able to detect artillery shells and trace them back to their origins. If J-16's AESA uses GaN, then it may blow performance out of the water.

2. J-20 AESA --- The earlier ones might still be using GaAs, but later ones might be or already shifting to GaN. But they are not telling.

3. No reason to believe that European standard is lower than US standard. The US may have an earlier start at AESA development in the 1990s, but the Europeans appeared to have overtaken the US in the 2000s and 2010s at least in terms of naval radars.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
It is correct that in more recent PD radars look down range is no longer terribly different from look up range (APG-66 is hardly a representative radar any more these days, and the overlapping ranges for l/d and l/u performance respectively render those figures rather useless for comparison). Doppler filtering works extremely well nowadays.

So what that Chinese source implicitly tells us is that the J-16 radar effectively is slightly longer ranged (maybe 10 - 15%) than the Irbis in the Su-35 - fair enough. They both have about the same antenna diameter, they're both X-band (meaning the number of radiating elements and hence antenna gain will be very close) and, as the Bars/Irbis family of PESAs uniquely have an AESA-like distributed receive signal path, very similar receiver sensitivity. Assuming the J-16 AESA has a fairly typical per-element transmit power of around 10W and a TRM count of some 2000 modules (X-band, 0.9m diameter array) we get a transmitter power in the same 20kW ball park as the Irbis' centralized two-stage TWT (which however implies wave guide losses that don't accrue in an AESA). Makes sense, the available cooling and generator capacity (if that's the long pole in the tent) should also match closely, given the related airframe platforms.

Antenna gain similar, transmitter power similar (with an advantage for the AESA, due to not suffering wave guide losses), receiver sensitivity similar - radar range equation says they'll be close, lo & behold, they are. I don't see why this is such a big deal - there's nothing very much surprising about it, just basic physics.

PESA will surely have less receiving and transmit gain. There is going to be signal losses between the travel path of the main amp to the emitters in the elements. This includes the line feeds and duplexers in the sub array level, and then between the phase shifters themselves. That's for the transmit part. On the receive part, there is going to be signal losses between the receiving element to the A/D converters, as there is more path between the receiver to the A/D converter which is located way more downstream on the PESA, perhaps at the subarray level.

On the AESA, the amp is on the module and the travel distance between amp and the emitter is very short. If the AESA is using TTD phase shifting instead of electro-magnetic ones, even less losses. On the AESA, the A/D converter is on the module itself, so the receiver to A/D converter path is also very short.

The use of electrical or magnetic phase shifters means these shifters need a reset time between transmit and receive. This is called dead time so during the phase of the pulse time, the element is neither transmitting or receiving. This results in shorter duty times and receive times compared to an AESA.

IRBIS or BARS main AMP must be strong enough to overcome these disadvantages to justify a PESA over an AESA. Older radars can still try to outpower an AESA by having a much more powerful main amp (TWT, Klystron, Magnetron, etc,.)

The main advantage of AESA over PESA and older radars is sheer agility, although modern amps for PESA and mechanical radars have shown to be agile too. The purpose of this agility is not much as for range and power, but ESM/ECM resistance. ESM resistance as not being able for the enemy to detect your emissions through LPI, and ECM resistance means its much more difficult to spoof and jam.

Having increased range in your radar only means that you are the one being detected earlier by your opponent through passive ESM.
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
Assuming all things being equal (quality of TR, packaging technology et al), the AESA on the J-10C detection range will be less than the 160/145 km baseline of the J-16. How much inferior is impossible to determine due to lack of applicable data to make any determination. This is simply based on size of aperture difference between a J-16 and J-10C. It is my belief it is about 1000 mm for the J-16 and 660 mm for the J-10C. Anyone who has better data on this please let me know. This does not mean that when the J-16 is matched against the J-10C, the J-16 will have a detection advantage i.e. first look. Their respective RCS also matters.
Think it’s actually the other way around...the J-10 is a bigger plane than the F-16. I seem to recall someone measuring the nose of the two before, but if not this is a point that can be verified with data.

It’s also worth noting that KLJ-7A, intended for export and use on the JF-17, is listed as having a 170km detection range for 3 m^2 targets. I’m not sure what baseline the F-16 figure you cited is using, but if it’s the same baseline that would mean that the KLJ-7A has roughly the same (or slightly better) performance, which would imply that we can’t simply make an apples to apples comparison based on array size, assuming the JF-17 has a smaller nose than the F-16. (To be clear I’m not saying the JF-17 Block III’s AESA is necessarily better than the F-16’s, just the figure you cited).

4)Assuming that the J-20 aperture size and the J-16 is somewhat similar and applying similar AESA technology, the J-20 will have similar detection range. However the J-20 will have a significant detection advantage against the J-16. This can be illustrated by the following assumptions. Say they have respective RCS profile of 3/5 m2 (J-16) and 0.1/0.5m2 (J-20). The J-20 can detect the J-16 at a range of 210/239 km. Conversely, the J-16 can detect a J-20 at 90/107 km. Obviously these numbers are meant to be illustrative only.

The J-20, according to this following graphic which we received years ago, has a third generation AESA compared to the J-16’s second generation...again, we shouldn’t just assume an apples to apples comparison.

Chinese%20fighter%20AESA.jpg
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
In order that any meaningful approach is used to analyse a subject matter, an understanding of it is important. In the case of lookup/look down the difference is associated with backscattering of the earth surface. Therefore due to the source for this difference even though as radar detection technology improved and correspondingly the range, the difference remain relatively constant. Applying a percentage approach would be misleading at best. In contrast, the head on/tail on detection as in the example of Zhuk AE is 130/60 km. The difference is more significant and typically we use a rule of thumb measure of 50-60% to determine tail-on if head-on is known. In this case the difference is not due to back scattering but doppler shift. In other words, the subject of analysis matters. .


Don't worry. I am not hung up on Yankeesama's reference to the substantially weaker comment. I just wanted to make the point that such a reference cannot be attributed to detection range. There obviously can be other reasons like ECM features that influenced such a statement form the poster. I just don't know beyond speculating.

If you weren't so hung up on it then why even bother suggesting that the word "substantially" was so important that you said I was "conveniently omitting it"?...

And for the record, the reason I was bothered by your comments was from #337 where you wrote this:

"The statement by Yankeesama said the following "The N035E's look-up range is only slightly more than the J-16 radar's look-down range" We first need to agree whether Yankeesama is making meaningful statements or conversely the poster doesn't know what he is talking about. In other words, there has to be consistency in interpretation. For example, if the argument is that by comparing look up and look down is like apples and oranges comparison - why is Yankeesama making it? Either the poster is providing meaning with the statements or it does not. If it is the latter, than whatever Yankeesama has said becomes questionable. You can't be selective to suit your chosen narrative. I have chosen the former and that there is meaning to it and that I can reasonably apply meaning to it."

I feel like the most reasonable interpretation of Yankeesama's two statements is the very obvious and direct way of saying that J-16's radar has a longer detection range than N035E (or N035E being "substantially weaker" than current Chinese AESAs).

...Unless you're trying to suggest something else, like the idea that detection range doesn't have a positive relationship with power.


My main interest is to be able to make a reasonable determination of J-16's detection capability. I am fairly comfortable with my approach and the numbers derived based on the very limited information to work with. As such, I personally am drawing a number of conclusions from it.
1)The detection range in my view is impressive given it is China's first stab at the technology. It is my belief that this is equivalent to European standard but not at the US level.
2)The J-16 armed with PL-15 will be able to substantially capitalise that missile's range without requiring AWAC referencing.
3)Assuming all things being equal (quality of TR, packaging technology et al), the AESA on the J-10C detection range will be less than the 160/145 km baseline of the J-16. How much inferior is impossible to determine due to lack of applicable data to make any determination. This is simply based on size of aperture difference between a J-16 and J-10C. It is my belief it is about 1000 mm for the J-16 and 660 mm for the J-10C. Anyone who has better data on this please let me know. This does not mean that when the J-16 is matched against the J-10C, the J-16 will have a detection advantage i.e. first look. Their respective RCS also matters.
4)Assuming that the J-20 aperture size and the J-16 is somewhat similar and applying similar AESA technology, the J-20 will have similar detection range. However the J-20 will have a significant detection advantage against the J-16. This can be illustrated by the following assumptions. Say they have respective RCS profile of 3/5 m2 (J-16) and 0.1/0.5m2 (J-20). The J-20 can detect the J-16 at a range of 210/239 km. Conversely, the J-16 can detect a J-20 at 90/107 km. Obviously these numbers are meant to be illustrative only.

Tam's reply basically conveys what I wanted to here.

I will add however that I am less interested in trying to extrapolate what kind of absolute detection range and performance J-16's AESA may have. I think that is being a little bit ambitious. It is beyond what I would be comfortable doing for PLA watching at any rate.
 

Hyperwarp

Captain
It is correct that in more recent PD radars look down range is no longer terribly different from look up range (APG-66 is hardly a representative radar any more these days, and the overlapping ranges for l/d and l/u performance respectively render those figures rather useless for comparison). Doppler filtering works extremely well nowadays.

So what that Chinese source implicitly tells us is that the J-16 radar effectively is slightly longer ranged (maybe 10 - 15%) than the Irbis in the Su-35 - fair enough. They both have about the same antenna diameter, they're both X-band (meaning the number of radiating elements and hence antenna gain will be very close) and, as the Bars/Irbis family of PESAs uniquely have an AESA-like distributed receive signal path, very similar receiver sensitivity. Assuming the J-16 AESA has a fairly typical per-element transmit power of around 10W and a TRM count of some 2000 modules (X-band, 0.9m diameter array) we get a transmitter power in the same 20kW ball park as the Irbis' centralized two-stage TWT (which however implies wave guide losses that don't accrue in an AESA). Makes sense, the available cooling and generator capacity (if that's the long pole in the tent) should also match closely, given the related airframe platforms.

Antenna gain similar, transmitter power similar (with an advantage for the AESA, due to not suffering wave guide losses), receiver sensitivity similar - radar range equation says they'll be close, lo & behold, they are. I don't see why this is such a big deal - there's nothing very much surprising about it, just basic physics.

NIIP claimed a 90 km value for a 0.01 m^2 target for Irbis-E. Assuming this is accurate and the gap between look-up and look down is at most 15% then the J-16 AESA should be around 100 km for a 0.01 m^2 target.
 
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