2019 India-Pakistani border clash

Status
Not open for further replies.

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
latest clarification

2 x JF17 downed 2 Indian aircraft both kills were BVR opening a new chapter in PAF history JF17 Block II serial 201

One was downed by Squadron leader Hasan and the other by a Wing Commander both flying out of Kamra

Squadron leader Hasan downed a Mig21 and pilot Abhiandhan was caught and handed back

Second aircraft was shot down and two pilots bailed out, the video shows Kashmiris in indian occupied Kashmir discussing the nationality of the parachutes both Indian

now they are saying it was either from Su30MKI or Mirage 2000

the aircraft in Budgam was a helicopter clearly seen from its rotary gear and was said to be shot down by friendly fire, possibly a SAR sent after initial downings of fighters

the burnt out bodies were also from this crash

another video circulating showing injured pilot and some guys asking him "sir are you ok" is a old video mixed with recent events
 

SteelBird

Colonel
I wish the claim is true too but, up to now, I haven't found any hard evidence to support the claim. One thing for sure, from now on you can say that JF-17 is a combat proven aircraft.
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
Hmm, both JF17 & IndiaPak threads locked. Looks like not just India fanboys are upset with the idea of JF17 downing a Su30. :)
If you want 100% proof, go to a H(B)ollywood forum where the outcomes are known before the movies even start.

From what we have now with what assets used by PAF/IAF, video of the 2 parachutes, history of the captured pilot, PAF claim of hitting 2 IAF jets, India's reaction including the sacking of an air force chief, it's a big stretch to still believe IAF only lost a mig21.

Even if you still don't want to believe a Su30 was downed, it's clear the PAF assets consisting largely of JF17 had the upper hand over IAF assets which included Su30 both in repulsing the first IAF attack & the subsequent PAF counter attack.

So congratulations to PAF & Thunder. We should have plenty of opportunities in the coming months/years to see more JF17 vs Su30.
 
D

Deleted member 13312

Guest
More mindless anecdotal evidence that have zero factual evidence to support it. Whatever justification that people can come up to support this video are nothing more than circumstantial evidence at best, and total hearsay at worse.
While I totally support serious discussion, this new thread ranks among the worse I have ever seen in a long time. Just slightly above that of those spammers.
Just waiting for Deino to shut this one down as well.
 

MastanKhan

Junior Member

Hi,

Here is a short interview of Air Marshal Shahid Latif---the program director of the JF17---. He was one of the first pilots for F16 training in the US in the early 80's and I myself went to school about 10 miles from Hill AFB in utah at Ogden in the early 80's. Shahid was a legend amongst the american & foreign F16 pilots---.

When he started the program after 9/11---it was a clean slate program---and it was totally influenced by the F16 design. The chinese told him that they did not have the engineering capabilities to produce what he wanted---according to Shahid---he told the chinese that he had confidence in their capabilites as he saw the changes in the chinese industry moving at an astronomical pace---. In 2-3 years time the chinese engineering capabilities were upto the par---.

A modular design of the JF17 was formed keeping in mind upgrades for future blks---.

The next thing he states is that from the design parameters of the JF17 and chinese enhanced capabilites---the modifications on the J10 were performed thru the input of the Paf engineers---.

He clearly stated that the JF17 is superior in many areas to the Paf's F16's---. Now the above interview is only 5 minutes long---but there is a longer version of 10-12 minutes long where he goes thru the JF17 program---.

The Jf17's design had nothing to do with any other previous dsigns---. It started afresh after 9/11 when Gen Musharraf gave it the nod---.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
latest clarification

2 x JF17 downed 2 Indian aircraft ... unconfirmed
both kills were BVR opening a new chapter in PAF history JF17 Block II serial 201 ... unconfirmed

One was downed by Squadron leader Hasan and the other by a Wing Commander both flying out of Kamra

Squadron leader Hasan downed a Mig21 and pilot Abhiandhan was caught and handed back

Second aircraft was shot down and two pilots bailed out, the video shows Kashmiris in indian occupied Kashmir discussing the nationality of the parachutes both Indian ... unconfirmed

now they are saying it was either from Su30MKI or Mirage 2000

the aircraft in Budgam was a helicopter clearly seen from its rotary gear and was said to be shot down by friendly fire, possibly a SAR sent after initial downings of fighters

the burnt out bodies were also from this crash

another video circulating showing injured pilot and some guys asking him "sir are you ok" is a old video mixed with recent events


Thread reopened again and cleaned off several posts due to repeated offense or political bias.

Therefore a strict reminder: This thread is for the recent India-Pakistani border conflict and NOT for any political agenda. Posting propaganda, political bias and rants against any side or again posting anything unproven will be rated as off topic and provocation.
Either you claim such content as "per my opinion" or "by my sources" and if possible you give a source or You leave it.
Post like the one above will not be accepted from both sides.


Honestly; I know some of might hate me for this action, but my duty is to keep this forum civilised and to rely on facts. And so far the only confirmed loss is the one downed MiG-21 Bison.

I'm already offended from both sides with accusations I would be biased for or against the other side but that's not my intention:
All I'm interested regardless the outcome, are facts. Misleading the truth by false-facts or spreading propaganda s facts will not be tolerated.
This includes claims like above the downed Su-30MKI or F-16, the bail out of 2-3 parachutes or any other unconfirmed things.
So far these are simply unconfirmed until proof is given and post have to be rated as that.

I want to make clear that I'm highly annoyed by these latest developments and I won't accept any nationalistic attempts from any side to derail this forum into something similar you find in other forums. We are not a nationalistic fan-boy form where anyone can claim what ever fits his or her agenda without facts or even against facts. So either post it as an opinion and argue or leave it.

If you want to spread propaganda, then you are wrong here.

Therefore take this as a strict warning: Any further violation will be handled accordingly.



Thread reopened.
 
now I've read The Guardian story dated Sat 2 Mar 2019 17.45 GMT, sounding ominous:
Stand-off in Kashmir: ‘Our last hope is that a war will sort this once and for all’
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

As tensions grow, some say a decisive India-Pakistan conflict might be better than a status quo that satisfies no one

The sonorous pre-dawn call to prayer mingled with the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
last week in Srinagar, the summer capital of Indian-controlled Kashmir. Less than 100 miles from the Himalayan city, two nuclear-equipped armies were fighting duels in the sky.

It was a week of milestones in the abysmal relationship between the subcontinent’s two biggest powers: the first time
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
bombed Pakistani territory in five decades; the first publicly acknowledged dogfight between their jets in as many years; and the closest the pair have come to war so far this century.

No city bears the brunt of the tensions between the two more than Srinagar, a city whose Mughal architecture, tranquil lakes and mountain surroundings are the scenic backdrop for regular gunfights, bombings and violent protests. Last week red crosses were painted on the roofs of hospitals in the city – marking them out as medical facilities from the sky – and stocks of food, water and fuel dwindled as the prospect of a fourth war between India and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
over Kashmir suddenly appeared real.

Pakistan’s
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
was the first sign of de-escalation and a possible return to a fragile status quo. That is precisely what some Kashmiris say that they fear. “When they fly, I pray something happens now,” says Mohammad Ashraf Wani of the jets that woke him every night last week. “Our last hope is that war will solve this once and for all.”

Kashmir was a semi-independent princely state until the British left India in 1947. Under invasion from Pakistan, Kashmir’s Hindu monarch opted to be absorbed into India. An ensuing war cleaved
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
into parts, one controlled by India and the other by Pakistan. (A third section in the east is ruled by China.)

India’s union with Kashmir, its only Muslim-majority region, has always been unstable. In 1989 it turned toxic with the eruption of a full-blown militancy fuelled by money and fighters from across the heavily militarised border with Pakistan.

The insurgency has grown again in the past five years, this time with a difference. Its ranks have been swelled by young Kashmiris, who disappear from their colleges or homes and surface again clutching rifles in videos widely circulated on social media. India’s government
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
: more militants were killed last year than any year in the previous decade.

Such announcements are celebrated in Delhi, but brew alienation and anger among Kashmiris. Civilians have started running to the sites of armed clashes, putting their bodies on the line to help insurgents escape.

Wani, 28, is part of a generation of Kashmiris who have grown up during the insurgency. In 2016 he was blinded by pellets fired by Indian security personnel trying to put down popular protests against Delhi’s rule.

If India and Pakistan were to fight another war over Kashmir, it would make no difference to his life, he says. “We have been seeing war every day. We have never seen peace.”

A bitter winter in Srinagar had just started to ease when the latest
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. That afternoon a local member of a Pakistan-based militant group rammed a car laden with explosives into a bus carrying Indian paramilitaries. The explosion was heard for miles around. At least 40 people were killed, the highest death toll from a single attack in the history of the insurgency.

India promised retribution; in Srinagar, police and doctors’ leave was cancelled, health departments were ordered to stockpile medicine and 100 extra companies of paramilitary forces were shuttled to the region.

After hundreds of separatist and religious leaders were rounded up and jailed by police, businesses across the city shut in protest, leaving Srinagar’s streets and markets deserted. “People just do nothing at home,” says Arshad Ahmad, who lives in the restive southern district of Shopian, which frequently shuts down in solidarity when militants are killed by security forces. “We sit at home, meet friends, visit relatives, and just discuss politics and the situation.”

Economic life in the region, which is frequently interrupted, has virtually ground to a halt, said the manager of an insurance company. “People hold money back and focus on the essentials,” he says. “They don’t feel fear so much as an anxiety over what will happen next.”

Kashmir is landlocked, and supplies of food and petrol were already running short after landslides and snow closed the only highway into the region. The prospect of war prompted panic buying. Supermarket shelves emptied of staple foods and there were long queues for fuel.

“When all these things were happening and we saw convoys of artillery moving, we felt something was going to happen,” said Obaid Qadir, a state employee. “Immediately we made sure to purchase gas, rice, cooking oil and spices. We got stocks to last for at least two months.”

Heavy mortar fire across the line of control, a regular occurrence along a de facto border Bill Clinton once called “the most dangerous place in the world”, disrupted an unlikely trade route.

Since 2007 merchants on both sides of divided Kashmir have exchanged goods in a barter system intended to build confidence between the countries. “The trade remained shut because of the shelling,” said Hilal Turki, the president of the union for cross-border traders. The 140 trucks that ply the route have been dormant, parked at a trading point near the ceasefire line, for more than two weeks.

Traffic could resume again soon and, with the threat of war averted, Kashmir will disappear from the world’s attention. But resentment among those who live there will continue to grow, planting the seeds for the next crisis, says Noor Ahmad Baba, a retired professor of political science at the Central University of Kashmir.

“This muscular policy under [Indian prime minister] Narendra Modi has created mistrust and it has created more problems,” Baba says.

Significantly, it was a local man, Adil Ahmad Dar, who carried out the 14 February attack on the Indian convoy. It is estimated that more than 250 like him are hiding in the hills around Srinagar or in safe houses scattered throughout the region.

Heavy firing over the border continued throughout this weekend. The stalemate between Delhi and Islamabad proves only what Kashmiris already know, says Madhosh Balhami, a poet whose home – containing his life’s work – was destroyed during a gunfight between militants and police last year.

“Kashmir cannot be a military issue,” he says. “Both these countries are not learning any lessons.”

In the same breath, he adds that he, too, would welcome a war. “Better than the last 30 years is to have a seven-day war and finish this issue for once and all,” he says.
 

Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
However, the video posted below that tweet with two parachutes is extremely convincing evidence to suggest a twin seater got splashed.

Extremely convincing?

I only ever see one chute (strictly speaking I see one tiny, out of focus blob of white, but I'll readily accept that it could well be a parachute) at the same time. Due to the featureless background it is impossible to work out how the camera is panned and zoomed (i.e. does the person filming switch between two objects too far apart to fit inside the frame simultaneously or is it just shaky footage of single chute?).

So unless you can find a frame showing two parachutes at the same time (I couldn't), I'm afraid the value of this video is pretty much zero.

The suggestion that the second chute was the seat stabilisation chute does not stand, as such drag chutes are very small. See below an example in action.

If you can see the drag chute, you will also be able to positively ID the ejection seat as the seat is bigger than the chute.

Sure, an aviation enthusiast knows that, but to the average witness the only item aboard a fighter jet with a parachute is probably the crew. From their point of view, two chutes = two pilots. As I said, civilian accident investigation history is *littered* with eye witnesses steadfastly claiming to have seen things far more blatantly in contradiction to the actual event than this.

Furthermore, such a small chute cannot effectively slow the descent of the ejection seat, so even if you did see it, it won’t be drifting down as shown, but rather a barely slowed plummet.

If it's possible for people to be convinced that they saw an aircraft on fire before it hit the ground even though it was conclusively established not to have been, then I'm not so certain something comparatively subtle like a higher rate of descent on one chute would assuredly disabuse them of the seemingly trivial explanation that there were two pilots. You have to bear in mind the startle factor, and the fact that they'll typically be watching from a considerable distance.

Look no further than this thread, where you have posters who are absolutely convinced a nondescript black blotch (which is barely discernible, with the benefit of context, as an indeterminate fighter aircraft) must without a shadow of doubt be a Su-30MKI. And they, unlike people unexpectedly seeing an aircraft shoot-down, have the advantage of being able to replay and pause the footage at will.

The fact remains, to date we only have word of mouth to go by here, and past experience shows that it's highly unreliable. No official confirmation, no (believable) pictorial evidence.
 
Last edited:
So can we say we have a confirmed JF-17 kill as there has been no denial and practically no controversy surrounding the fact of downed Mig-21? If yes, what weapons was used? Under what situation and any additional information available?

If not, why?
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top