2019 India-Pakistani border clash

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ohan_qwe

Junior Member
From a logistics perspective it seams stupid to have incompatible missiles because of a software limitation. Do you know if missiles also have blackbox/tracker or is it possible to fire a missile without US noticing?
 

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that if a JF-17 faced off against a Su-30MKI the scenario would be very different from the Mig-21 Bison clash.
As per OFFICIAL Indian claim their Su-30MKI and upgraded Mirage-2000 were also there to defend against PAF attack .... for this plz listen the press conference by the representative of their tri services from yesterday
 

phrozenflame

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India removes senior IAF officer after Pakistan shoots down jets:
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"Western diplomats in Islamabad also said they did not believe the Indian air force hit a militant camp.

“There was no militant training camp there. It hasn’t been there for a few years – they moved it. It’s common knowledge amongst our intelligence,” said one of them."


Surgical Strike in Pakistan a Botched Operation?
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ougoah

Brigadier
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Not as much as it used to.
First with the rising F35, F16 is not as hot a seller for big buys. The current orders are Slovakia, Bahrain and Taiwan. India was the largest potential new buyer. With Slavikia (to replace Mig21s) and Bahrain (adding to there fleet) both ordering about a dozen to two dozen. Taiwan would have been second largest and really doesn't have much of a choice in orders because of the Great wall the PRC erected to prevent FMS. Besides most of its order was refit of its current fleet. India would have been the largest new order that's why the Indian production line and F21.

Second even if it did happen come in that category of "one in a million" that moment when the sun and moon fall into perfect alignment. It's possible don't get me wrong in training exercises F22 has been "shot down by T38s. But actually in the skies...

Third Pakistani Vipers are older machines even with the second hand Jordianian machines A and B units lacking a lot of the more advanced upgrades.

Finally the US tends to be fairly open on losses. Sure there are claims of but Nation X shot down this... but then again Argentina claims to have Sunk the HMS Invincible. Claims don't make downed jets.


It's possible that some missiles in that Lot were sold to Taiwan. Lots are not nation specific. It's based on how Many standing orders there are or are protected to be. So that Lot for FMS might have ended up going to dozens of countries. Including Taiwan, Including Jordan including the UK or Greece or Turkey.

I can't say for absolutely certain on this but I do know that when the US first introduced the Aim 9 Sidewinder, the Russians reverse engineered it.
Stories on how very. One claim is that after the US refit Taiwanese jets during the 58 crisis, one Sidewinder dud was left stuck in the side of a Chinese fighter. Another is that a Swedish officer sold the Soviets the blueprints.
I like to think some combination of the two. Either way. The K13 Atoll missile is virtually interchangeable with early Aim9 right down to part numbers
So the ability to reverse engineer the interface between a host fighter and missile is not unheard of. Since Pakistan was the customer they may have granted the PRC access to there inventory, Or done it themselves.
Either way the missile I take as confirmed the launch platform yet to be determined absolutely. I side with a JF17 though. That said because of the ranges involved and locations said it seems like an F16 could have fired an AMRAAM and still remained in Pakistan well taking down a target.

Yes I finally found the photo on PDF with Indian held AIM-120 piece that has a serial number which seems to match the Taiwanese batch. How it ended up in Pakistan's hands is a wonder. If all true, F-16s likely in the air to have fired the missile. Question is whether the Pakistani representative purposefully misled everyone by saying no F-16s involved by talking only of the strike mission which only consisted of Mirages, or actually the case of no F-16s airborne.

Another video from the Indian side, -
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1x JF-17 followed by an F-16

This guy has a better video linked a few posts below with actual sound. Don't really see the hit at all. People see what they are looking for and the reddish pink hue is glare from the camera adjusting to sunlight. If you watch the second video with sound and pause just as the second fighter gets behind tree line, there is a bit of reddish pink in a circular pattern that appears over the tree (screenshot below). Almost certain it's a camera effect if you watch the whole sequence around that moment. An F-16 would be turning like mad and dispensing flares to dodge a radar or IR guided missile if it were being chased. Still think these guys are grasping at straws with these bits of "evidence". And this guy's post with the other images of complete blue sky with a tiny puff of pink in the middle cannot be found in either footage at all. At least I haven't found where they got those screenshots from... makes me feel that is just conveniently made up. These guys seem like professional mass manipulators. Actually quite scary how easily they can steer the thinking of over a billion people. Worse than even the worst examples of Chinese state controlled media brainwashing.

Now the believers have three bits of "evidence" supporting their claim of shooting down an F-16.

1. An AMRAAM wreck that possibly originated from Taiwan at least as the official first owner of the American made missile.

2. A photo of what is very obviously a Mig-21 and demonstrably so if anyone wants to challenge it, I've all the clear evidence to embarrass you.

3. A photo of a tiny pinkish mist against a clear blue sky and two videos (likely unrelated to the photo) of difficult to visually identify fighters flying by in straight course. Honestly the recording quality looks like UFO footage from the 12th century :p

We'll keep on waiting for more convincing evidence. I'm personally hoping no MKI was shot down and an F-16 actually was shot down by a Bison no less. And for JF-17 to have used a SD-10 (export PL-12) to down the Mig-21. Hoping no lives were lost in all that most importantly.

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Hyperwarp

Captain
How the heck can you tell what plane it is from the quality of that video?

Just my guess.

qet2EB3.jpg
 

Dizasta1

Senior Member
Until and unless india can provide actual PAF F-16 wreckage, a PAF Pilot (alive or Shaheed) or an ejection seat. There is no evidence to support that a PAF F-16 was shot down by india, by a MiG-21 of all the jets in iAF inventory. Pakistan Air Force Viper pilots are very deadly, they're in their element and for an iAF pilot to take on a Pakistan Air Force, Viper Pilot and that too in a MiG-21, would be a one sided contest. Flanker-Hs taking on PAF Vipers is another matter altogether. So until such time as there is actual wreckage of a Pakistan Air Force F-16, any claims by india are baseless and not worth discussing.
 
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