2019 India-Pakistani border clash
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At least..
We should stay on facts. 1 mig21 was shot down. Alll the rest is meer propaganda by both sides.
Dizasta1
Senior Member
Your honesty is appreciated and respected. This is why I like SDF, quest for knowledge out weighs nationalistic pride or anything else.
Brumby
Major
Rather than moderation I suggest locking this thread for 24 hours or until something substantive comes through the newswire. Some of the recent posts are simply pissing contest.
Dizasta1
Senior Member
Has it occurred to anyone how worthless the indian evidence of an AMRAAM is to this whole discussion? Does anyone even realize that the PAF "Strike Group" consisted Mirage-lls/Vs, and their escort protection aircraft would be Thunders and Vipers? Since the strike group aircraft were the only ones to enter indian (Occupied Kashmiri) airspace, that ISPR (Pakistan) is correct in claiming that no F-16s were used. You would only count the aircraft in the strike group, otherwise we might as well let them know which AWACS Pakistan Air Force was using for the engagement.
The AMRAAM only proves one thing, that it was used in the shoot down of an indian Air Force jet. Whether it was fired from an F-16, is a matter far too sensitive for Pakistan. Losing an F-16 (by remaining silent) is far better than the Americans knowing Pakistan broke the source code of AMRAAM and married it with the Chinese systems (possibility exists, albeit it is mere speculation on my part right now). Now that would have serious ramifications for Pakistan, as it still seeks to bolster its Viper fleet, raising it to well over 100 Vipers. This could explain why the indians chose to press on with the AMRAAM story, as it would put Pakistan in a tail spin with the Americans.
Whether the indians can afford to lose their credibility, remains a constant, since their track record has been colorful. But the AMRAAM is pressed on by the indians as smoke n mirrors. Disregarding the fact that the mangled AMRAAM wreckage piece could may well be part of the missile used to shoot down the second MiG-21 which landed in iok. We should have to wait n see what becomes of thus situation.
The AMRAAM only proves one thing, that it was used in the shoot down of an indian Air Force jet. Whether it was fired from an F-16, is a matter far too sensitive for Pakistan. Losing an F-16 (by remaining silent) is far better than the Americans knowing Pakistan broke the source code of AMRAAM and married it with the Chinese systems (possibility exists, albeit it is mere speculation on my part right now). Now that would have serious ramifications for Pakistan, as it still seeks to bolster its Viper fleet, raising it to well over 100 Vipers. This could explain why the indians chose to press on with the AMRAAM story, as it would put Pakistan in a tail spin with the Americans.
Whether the indians can afford to lose their credibility, remains a constant, since their track record has been colorful. But the AMRAAM is pressed on by the indians as smoke n mirrors. Disregarding the fact that the mangled AMRAAM wreckage piece could may well be part of the missile used to shoot down the second MiG-21 which landed in iok. We should have to wait n see what becomes of thus situation.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
Thought I would share this in case anyone has the time and talent to try and find the downed F16/Su30.
Disclaimer, I have not yet tried their 14 day free trial.
But the site claims global satellite coverage of 3m to 72cm resolution.
So if someone has time, and the site works as claimed, it would be possible to spot any crash sites and get fairly detailed imagery, which might prove/dispel the claims.
Disclaimer, I have not yet tried their 14 day free trial.
But the site claims global satellite coverage of 3m to 72cm resolution.
So if someone has time, and the site works as claimed, it would be possible to spot any crash sites and get fairly detailed imagery, which might prove/dispel the claims.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Not as much as it used to.
First with the rising F35, F16 is not as hot a seller for big buys. The current orders are Slovakia, Bahrain and Taiwan. India was the largest potential new buyer. With Slavikia (to replace Mig21s) and Bahrain (adding to there fleet) both ordering about a dozen to two dozen. Taiwan would have been second largest and really doesn't have much of a choice in orders because of the Great wall the PRC erected to prevent FMS. Besides most of its order was refit of its current fleet. India would have been the largest new order that's why the Indian production line and F21.
Second even if it did happen come in that category of "one in a million" that moment when the sun and moon fall into perfect alignment. It's possible don't get me wrong in training exercises F22 has been "shot down by T38s. But actually in the skies...
Third Pakistani Vipers are older machines even with the second hand Jordianian machines A and B units lacking a lot of the more advanced upgrades.
Finally the US tends to be fairly open on losses. Sure there are claims of but Nation X shot down this... but then again Argentina claims to have Sunk the HMS Invincible. Claims don't make downed jets.
It's possible that some missiles in that Lot were sold to Taiwan. Lots are not nation specific. It's based on how Many standing orders there are or are protected to be. So that Lot for FMS might have ended up going to dozens of countries. Including Taiwan, Including Jordan including the UK or Greece or Turkey.
I can't say for absolutely certain on this but I do know that when the US first introduced the Aim 9 Sidewinder, the Russians reverse engineered it.
Stories on how very. One claim is that after the US refit Taiwanese jets during the 58 crisis, one Sidewinder dud was left stuck in the side of a Chinese fighter. Another is that a Swedish officer sold the Soviets the blueprints.
I like to think some combination of the two. Either way. The K13 Atoll missile is virtually interchangeable with early Aim9 right down to part numbers
So the ability to reverse engineer the interface between a host fighter and missile is not unheard of. Since Pakistan was the customer they may have granted the PRC access to there inventory, Or done it themselves.
Either way the missile I take as confirmed the launch platform yet to be determined absolutely. I side with a JF17 though. That said because of the ranges involved and locations said it seems like an F16 could have fired an AMRAAM and still remained in Pakistan well taking down a target.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
You would need compatible hardware which doesn't seem hard. It then comes to the computers.
The "source code".
Pakistan has been using AMRAAMS since 2006. We know the Pakistani government had a hand in developing JF17 so it's possible. Although if proven I wonder if there would be back lash from the US.
The "source code".
Pakistan has been using AMRAAMS since 2006. We know the Pakistani government had a hand in developing JF17 so it's possible. Although if proven I wonder if there would be back lash from the US.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
Seems like a silly pointless risk to use AMRAAMs over Indian territory from JF17s even if Pakistan and China cracked the source code and integrated the type. It’s not like the JF17 doesn’t have its own BVR option.
I remember America placing all sorts of restrictions on PAF F16s, like how they can only operate over Pakistani territory for example.
It seems most plausible to me that JF17s escorted the Mirages into Indian territory during the strike mission, but the PAF probably also had F16s in the air on the Pakistani side of the boarder as backup (pointless trying to lie about whether F16s did cross the line as the Americans have black boxes installed on the F16s, so would know if they crossed the boarder).
The supporting F16s might have taken pot shots at the Indian jets with AMRAAMs but missed, and the Indians just happened to find some debris after the missiles crashed/self-destructed.
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