2019 India-Pakistani border clash

TerraN_EmpirE said:

It's interesting, JF17 is inspired by the strong points of the J7 yet seems to be easily out classing in every way it's progenitor. This may be more a product of it being a 4+ fighter taking on what might be called a 3++++++.
The mig21 is vintage although the Indians have updated it how they can there is only somuch you can do before the law of diminishing returns.

I imagine that if we did see SU30 in the Mix the JF17 would be in a worse situation. A budget single engine fighter of the 4+ vs a air superiority twin engine fighter of the 4+ is likely not a good place for The budget fighter.

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I don't see any reason why the JF-17 should not outclass the J7, with all the effort that was put into it.
Although it is true what you said, that if a JF-17 faced off against a Su-30MKI the scenario would be very different from the Mig-21 Bison clash. But that would at least be a somewhat even playing field, with the deciding factor being that of the individual pilots's skills. I would image the JF-17 being better in CQC whereas the Su-30 would dominate in energy maneuvers.

siegecrossbow said:

I don't think Lockheed Martin will buy this claim.

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As do I, the question is will the Indians walk it back?
Because post conflict. they (India) will be in a position (assuming India and Pakistan don't decide to go nuts) To reassess the mission needs of the IAF. Which means they will have no choice but to push for retirement of the Mig21 and replacement by a more modern fighter.
So do they walk it back and buy F21 or continue to court LockMart as a bidder, or do they double down and risk burning one of the best options offered them for 4th gens?

Remember before the shooting started Lockheed Martin had refined there pitch to the Indians with the F21 a block 70 F16 with modifications to suit Indian wants. Complete with Indian production.

timepass said:

And on top of that US/EU will buy this Indian claim...

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I'm NOT that sure about that. At least what I read from New York Times, BBC, and CNN, so far, only mentioned Pakistan claims to shoot down two India planes. No words about India shoot down anything. Or, am I missing some reports?

TerraN_EmpirE said:

As do I, the question is will the Indians walk it back?
Because post conflict. they (India) will be in a position (assuming India and Pakistan don't decide to go nuts) To reassess the mission needs of the IAF. Which means they will have no choice but to push for retirement of the Mig21 and replacement by a more modern fighter.
So do they walk it back and buy F21 or continue to court LockMart as a bidder, or do they double down and risk burning one of the best options offered them for 4th gens?

Remember before the shooting started Lockheed Martin had refined there pitch to the Indians with the F21 a block 70 F16 with modifications to suit Indian wants. Complete with Indian production.

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Don't think IAF would rush retire anything before they met their 41 squadron air force "quota". Though LM would likely get a better deal than before.

Listen from 30:50 onward

[email protected] said:

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Nice work!

berserk said:

What a stupid thread full of fake bravado by Pakistani & their Chinese chear leaders lol
Indian lost only one mig 21 to AMRAAM not some Chinese BVR as claimed by Pakistani's...they have changed their statements 4 times by now from capturing 3 pilots to 2 pilots to now only one. They denied no F 16 was used which turned out to be a lie & AIM 120 was used... actually 2 of them one of which missed which was shown to media during debriefing, they have lost a twin seater F 16 to mig 21 which they are yet to claim, here is a complete report by Vishnu some who is a credible defence reporter about what happen.

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You're the joke here. I get you're ego has been hurt but you don't know any more than anyone else here so stop pretending Indian media is telling the truth. They've been caught out lying about some photos being F16 when it is a fact those photos presented are of iaf MiG-21. Maybe PAF did use F16 and did have one F16 shot down but the evidence presented by Indian media is thoroughly proven as fake. I will challenge you to show photos of wrecked F16. If you can't do it, you should be quiet like your precious media should be. If changed claims are indicative of anything solid then iaf lost a su30mki because indian statements mentioned MKIs conducting CAP missions and then retracted it to only mig 21 response.

The joke is really on india. Almost everyone neutral can see that so far Pak has one iaf pilot and one wreck. India has claims and Pak also has further claims about other fighter/s. Only thing solid now is one mig21 and one pilot. The smart thing to do will be to shut up until official statements are out and solid evidence presented and recognised by both parties or third parties. but Indian media is in damage control frenzy.

By the way there's no cheerleading here. Just your hurt ego and imagination. To restore your dignity to those reading you should start with giving me evidence of Chinese cheerleading and wrecked F16. Shame there isn't any. We will leave the cheerleading, BS claims, and fragile ego for you to show the forum. Calling this thread stupid when it is far more balanced than anything on pdf and that cesspool dfi, only reveals your bitterness. If you have good reasons we will discuss them without calling anyone stupid or cheerleaders just because the world isn't going your way. But since you started the aggression, no respect will be given to you and before you go around with your macho attitude, remember it is iaf at the current mercy of Pakistan with one confirmed kill and one pilot captured. You can invent indian media fairytales and call them truth all you want but the test of the world will start to see through the indian lies soon if you keep it up.

ougoah said:

You're the joke here. I get you're ego has been hurt but you don't know any more than anyone else here so stop pretending Indian media is telling the truth. They've been caught out lying about some photos being F16 when it is a fact those photos presented are of iaf MiG-21. Maybe PAF did use F16 and did have one F16 shot down but the evidence presented by Indian media is thoroughly proven as fake. I will challenge you to show photos of wrecked F16. If you can't do it, you should be quiet like your precious media should be. If changed claims are indicative of anything solid then iaf lost a su30mki because indian statements mentioned MKIs conducting CAP missions and then retracted it to only mig 21 response.

The joke is really on india. Almost everyone neutral can see that so far Pak has one iaf pilot and one wreck. India has claims and Pak also has further claims about other fighter/s. Only thing solid now is one mig21 and one pilot. The smart thing to do will be to shut up until official statements are out and solid evidence presented and recognised by both parties or third parties. but Indian media is in damage control frenzy.

By the way there's no cheerleading here. Just your hurt ego and imagination. To restore your dignity to those reading you should start with giving me evidence of Chinese cheerleading and wrecked F16. Shame there isn't any. We will leave the cheerleading, BS claims, and fragile ego to you.

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LOL indian AF has done a media debriefing where they openly claim F 16 was shot down while we lost a mig 21 on the other hand DG ISPR has changed their statement 5 times from 2 fighter shot down & 3 pilots captured to 2 to now only one & no f 16 used lol rest of your post is like typical post in this thread full of no substance what so ever....I will stand with official indian govt statement not with cheer leaders so shoo!!

This happens all the time on war reports. We don't call it the 'fog of war' for nothing. Without gun cameras and blackbox examination it is hard to know for sure what really happened.

Still, the only concrete things I have seen thus far are the MiG-21 pilot and wreck presented by Pakistan and the AIM 120 missile casing presented by India.

berserk said:

LOL indian AF has done a media debriefing where they openly claim F 16 was shot down while we lost a mig 21 on the other hand DG ISPR has changed their statement 5 times from 2 fighter shot down & 3 pilots captured to 2 to now only one & no f 16 used lol rest of your post is like typical post in this thread full of no substance what so ever....I will stand with official indian govt statement not with cheer leaders so shoo!!

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Yeah, fighter jets fight and get shot down, whatever. I think the most embarrassing thing for India is that their helicopters keep crashing and killing Indians without the other side firing a shot. Indian maintenance is so poor that both recent incidents involving India, last time for some road and this time for attacking Pakistan, involved an Indian helicopter crashing by itself and killing several IAF airmen. The record is so bad that you could say Indian helicopters are very reliable; you can count on them to crash every time there's a real incident!

That's not to mention that the IAF pilot had the survival skills of a 5-year old. When he parachuted out, instead of removing his air force jumpsuit and blending into the village/hiding, he ran around fully geared asking people if he was in India or Pakistan! His interview looked like he was quite happy, saying he was very impressed with Pakistani hospitality and they have "fantastic" tea! Does he think he's at Breakfast at Tiffany's?? His jet has been shot down and he has been captured; does he realize that there's shame in that?

Speaking of shame, forget about whether or not an F-16 was shot down. You don't have proof at all. When Pakistan provides proof, they show the smoking MiG-21 jet wreckage, the IAF pattern on it, and the dude they captured, in video interview. That's proof. When Indians try to prove something, they post a picture of THIER OWN MiG-21 wreckage and tell people it's a Pakistani F-16, only to be easily debunked on live TV by experts. That is where the real shame is. That's more shameful than losing a whole squadron of jets in combat.