J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

ougoah said:

You must be referring to the greater level of detail on the surface? This manufacturing is the most difficult part of fielding a stealthy plane. Sukhoi has not done this yet for the Su-57. It can't be done for those other fighters because it is probably quite a lot more expensive, time consuming, and requiring specific machinery, skills, and processes. Would PLAAF be happy with cutting J-10 and J-11 production rate by three or four times? No sometimes numbers are required to balance things and the optimal number of VLO is required.

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I actually think the PLAAF would be happy to make that trade off.

4 Chinese non-stealthy fighters like the J-10 or J-11 will easily be shot down by an opposing force with stealth fighters.

But a J-20 has a decent chance of surviving and winning such an encounter.

AndrewS said:

I actually think the PLAAF would be happy to make that trade off.

4 Chinese non-stealthy fighters like the J-10 or J-11 will easily be shot down by an opposing force with stealth fighters.

But a J-20 has a decent chance of surviving and winning such an encounter.

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But who is going to face enemy stealth fighters with their non-stealthy fighters?
In case fighting an opponent with stealth fighters, PLA is always going to have J-20 for that job, J10 and J-11 are only to act as cleaners aiming at the defenceless ground targets. You always need bomb truck or dumb bomb to do the labour heavy job. Having J-20 to do that job is like having your Ferrari to transport your furniture.

taxiya said:

But who is going to face enemy stealth fighters with their non-stealthy fighters?
In case fighting an opponent with stealth fighters, PLA is always going to have J-20 for that job, J10 and J-11 are only to act as cleaners aiming at the defenceless ground targets. You always need bomb truck or dumb bomb to do the labour heavy job. Having J-20 to do that job is like having your Ferrari to transport your furniture.

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In a hypothetical conflict, how many J-20s would China have? Then compare against the much larger numbers of F-22 and F-35 that will be available.

Chinese J-10 and J-11 would end up having to face off against those stealth fighters.

Hence my comment that it's better for China to maximise the overall number of stealth fighters.

Yes, the J-20 is not suited to being a bomb truck.

But remember that there are already a lot of non-steathy J-10 and Flanker airframes that are better suited for air to ground.

I would think in any engagement near China, j-10 and j-11 would be used in large numbers in coordinated manner with the J-20 against intruding stealth opponents.

Having multiple non-stealth fighter in area would curtail the freedom of maneuver of the stealth fighter, potentially force the stealth fighter to reveal itself by opening weapon by or turning on active countermeasures, and provide multiplied opportunity for the enemy stealth fighter to make a misstep by pointing one of its narrow radar bright aspects towards one of the non-stealth fighters buzzing in the area.

New poem via jhungary
That was a Poem about winning the golden helmet competition, not sure if you will understand if I translate it to you.

It goes :

Congratulation on winning the competition for the first time.

Winning the Golden Helmet ; The grandiose flew over the cloud
Slaying other dragon ; (I can't translate that into something that make sense in English)
Hidden and hard to find ; Nobody can catch it
It was untouched after the game ; its name thunder forever.

According to LKJ96 interpretation of the poem
From the poem, we can find that:
1. J-20 win "golden helmet" air combat competition.
2. J-20 defeats all fighters from J-10 and Su-27 family.
3. J-20 can't be found during the air combat competition.
4. J-20 has zero loss.

Here is the original via LKJ86

Richard Santos said:

I would think in any engagement near China, j-10 and j-11 would be used in large numbers in coordinated manner with the J-20 against intruding stealth opponents.

Having multiple non-stealth fighter in area would curtail the freedom of maneuver of the stealth fighter, potentially force the stealth fighter to reveal itself by opening weapon by or turning on active countermeasures, and provide multiplied opportunity for the enemy stealth fighter to make a misstep by pointing one of its narrow radar bright aspects towards one of the non-stealth fighters buzzing in the area.

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Stealthy aircraft are best employed in a "high noise" environment, with lots of other aircraft and EW to distract the enemy. J-20 is best used in a unified package of many aircraft types with different capabilities.

H

AndrewS said:

In a hypothetical conflict, how many J-20s would China have? Then compare against the much larger numbers of F-22 and F-35 that will be available.

Chinese J-10 and J-11 would end up having to face off against those stealth fighters.

Hence my comment that it's better for China to maximise the overall number of stealth fighters.

Yes, the J-20 is not suited to being a bomb truck.

But remember that there are already a lot of non-steathy J-10 and Flanker airframes that are better suited for air to ground.

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How many F-22 and F-35 can you base within 800 km range safely against China? How safe are America bases 1000 km close to China?

AndrewS said:

In a hypothetical conflict, how many J-20s would China have? Then compare against the much larger numbers of F-22 and F-35 that will be available.

Chinese J-10 and J-11 would end up having to face off against those stealth fighters.

Hence my comment that it's better for China to maximise the overall number of stealth fighters.

Yes, the J-20 is not suited to being a bomb truck.

But remember that there are already a lot of non-steathy J-10 and Flanker airframes that are better suited for air to ground.

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I think the key is where the conflict would be? ... if it was inside China or near Chinese coast and from what I read that China now have the radar tech that can detect stealth fighters 450 kms away, J-10 and J-11 would have a good chance to beat F-22 or F-35

If the conflict is far away from Chinese coast ... i.e SCS ... thats would be interesting ... considering China has a few big islands already and USN would need to bring the fighters from far away

If the conflict in open sea in Pacific or near the US continent ... I don't think PLAAF have any chance to win, unfortunately ... at least not yet

Richard Santos said:

I would think in any engagement near China, j-10 and j-11 would be used in large numbers in coordinated manner with the J-20 against intruding stealth opponents.

Having multiple non-stealth fighter in area would curtail the freedom of maneuver of the stealth fighter, potentially force the stealth fighter to reveal itself by opening weapon by or turning on active countermeasures, and provide multiplied opportunity for the enemy stealth fighter to make a misstep by pointing one of its narrow radar bright aspects towards one of the non-stealth fighters buzzing in the area.

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That is what I think as well.

But what would be even better would be more stealth fighters instead of non stealth fighter jets

There are multiple reasons not to ditch conventional fighters altogether even with stealths.

Just a few of the obvious ones off the top of my head:

-Stealth fighters can only carry a limited munitions load in terms of both quantity and size internally. If you start hanging weapons externally, you might as well be using conventional planes.

With a mixed fleet, the stealths can range ahead and act as spotters to cue up conventional fighters acting as missile carriers to shoot super long range AAMs at enemy stealths from beyond their internally carried missile ranges.

-similarly, conventional planes can carry dedicated jamming pods to enhance the survivability of both your stealth and conventional jets.

-modern radars have LPI scanning modes, but in order to remain LPI, there will be some sacrifices in performance compared to zero restriction, max performance mode.

With a mixed fleet, you can have conventional fighters like the J16 use their radars at max power and datalink the results to nearby J20s.

Any enemy stealth that wants to take a crack at the J16s will announce themselves to the J20s.

-with the limited munitions load and numbers of stealths, combat persistence becomes an issue.

With a large fleet of conventional fighters, you can tag team the enemy.

Planes like the J10 could be held back in reserve, initially to protect high value assets like AWACS and tankers, but after the main fighter groups have engaged, they can boost forward to join in the fray when both sets of stealths are locked in WVR dogfighting.

With enemy stealths already locked in WVR, they can close with minimal or no interference, and could even only carry WVR loads.

Their arrival would allow your stealths to disengage to rearm and refuel, while the enemy stealths are forced to fight on with guns only or risk turning tail and presenting easy tail shots.