the best intelligence agency in the world??

Sea Dog

Junior Member
VIP Professional
The fact is the vast majority of people in China aren't in sensitive positions and we haven't seen any signifcant defections since the 1970s. So if there were so much political discontent in China, why haven't we seen a lot of important defections? And the US treats these discontented people you speak of so wonderfully? The last person who cried for and was released with US help for being wrongfully imprisoned in China, was charged with corporate espionage for China in the US and was to be deported back to be persecuted. I think that case alone has sent a message in both the US and in China. In the US... more paranoia now that lauded dissidents are "double-agents" now spying against the US. And in China... the US can easily send you back to China to be persecuted. You are sadly mistaken to think there's a lot of political discontent in China. That vast majority of people just want their families to have a comfortable life. That's why the communist government has been able to stay in power. They get the people more care about their living standard than politics. People protest for economic reasons all the time. It's the political protests that get you in trouble. If China were that vulnerable, then why all the complaining and fear from the US? China inviting foreign entities to do what? The US has restrictions to what US companies can do in China. And I thought that China was the one behind in everything, so what would these spies get out of China? They certainly don't have access to the government in what they do in their corporate commercial world. What do they have access to that is so sensitive for China? And China ain't the Soviet Union and spies didn't cause their downfall. The Soviet Union collapsed because she couldn't keep up with Reagan's arms build-up. Do you see China frantically trying to keep up with the US? China has been very pragmatic with their military contrary to the propaganda from the US about China's military build-up. In fact, the US seems to be in the paranoid position the Soviets were in in regards to China these days.

Hence proving my point that the intelligence game doesn't live up to the hype. All those agencies got it wrong? That pretty much says it all!

I think you misinterpret some of my points. I don't think anybody here made any statement about "oppressed" Chinese citizenry. You don't need "opressed" or "discontented" citizens as a requirement for human intel. People as a general rule are prone to do things for money, or other motivators. Chinese people are no different. And sorry, but I do not believe, nor could you ever convince me that every Chinese person in China is in total lockstep with the CCP and their aims. I don't buy it. And I never will. And I've seen examples of Chinese citizens who loathe the CCP and their goals. There's lots of valuable intel to get from many sources. Just the fact that there are so many Western people in China in most coastal cities make it impossible for China to hide any potential invasion force for Taiwan or movement of large scale forces of any significance. That's just one example. The lowly peasant can also watch where missiles travel. ;)

As far as intelligence gathering. Don't make me laugh. The USA is not looking to China for scientific development or technological gains. The USA is ahead of China in most, if not all scientific and engineering fields. That's not what I'm talking about. The point is, there is alot of information of other intelligence that can be gained. And with all the Western people there, recruiting for collection would be simple. And I'm not so sure you understand what counterintelligence is and it's significance. The USA and NATO did a great job of this against the Soviets. And everyone thought that the Soviets were reaping windfalls of great intelligence bonanza's from the West. Come to find out that the USA was able to exploit Soviet Russia's greed for technical information and expertise from the West to the USA's advantage. I believe this is happening again. China is totally vulnerable to this type of counterintelligence due to their hunger for technical info from any and every source. Oh, I know there's not a bunch of internet hyped up stories to tell you it (thankfully), but facts is facts.

And China ain't the Soviet Union and spies didn't cause their downfall.

Correct, China ain't the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union was an independent entity that could challenge the USA on a pretty even footing militarily anywhere in the world. China cannot do this even regionally. The Soviets were very closed and paranoid as well. That's why you see such differences in how the USA deals with China versus the way they dealt with the Soviet Union. China is not called an "enemy". The current strategy seems to be to make China a stakeholder with something to lose. This way they won't do something stupid. This would never have worked with the Soviets. They required a whole different approach. Whether or not it works here remains to be seen. But this approach seems to be geared for a win-win situation if it works. China gets rich and modernizes, and the USA has peace in that region for itself and allies alike.

Spies did not cause the Soviets downfall. But counterintelligence was a good part of it.

The one area you are correct is your last statement. Intelligence gathering is not a perfect science. And there are no perfect methods of gathering. Analysis can be equally confusing. And sometimes things change that can render what you gathered obsolete. That's just the nature of the business.

sumdud said:
DIA? I have never even heard of that.

DIA is Defense Intelligence Agency. Totally a different entity than CIA. You can draw your own conclusions based upon the fact that they're not as well heard about. And there's others.
 
Last edited:

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
And sorry, but I do not believe, nor could you ever convince me that every Chinese person in China is in total lockstep with the CCP and their aims.

I didn't say anything like that. But you seem to believe that people can be easily traitorous. Like I said, most Chinese aren't political so why would they bother being traitorous for the US? Most Chinese-Americans don't get involved in American politics and somehow mainland Chinese are... enough to betray their country for the US? I don't know what history you know about China, but the Chinese tend to be suspicious of Western motives due to history. So they aren't so easily turned by the charms of the West. I'm sure you'll find plenty of Chinese that will give lip service but thats it. The vast majority of Chinese that do work against China for the US are doing it for self-serving purposes like money or an easy ticket to the US by crying political asylum not because of some political belief or again you would see somebody important defect.

And I've seen examples of Chinese citizens who loathe the CCP and their goals.

What goals? They're only communist by name. Everything they do now is about economics not anything political. I'd like to know what goals are you talking about. The moderators should be watching this. So I'd suggest to you if whatever you're thinking falls in line with the "Yellow Peril" crap, don't answer this question. And remember, if you've seen my posts here, I can easily play that game about the West.

Just the fact that there are so many Western people in China in most coastal cities make it impossible for China to hide any potential invasion force for Taiwan or movement of large scale forces of any significance.

You mean the US doesn't have satellites to do that job? You don't need ground intel for that.

The point is, there is alot of information of other intelligence that can be gained. And with all the Western people there, recruiting for collection would be simple. And I'm not so sure you understand what counterintelligence is and it's significance. The USA and NATO did a great job of this against the Soviets. And everyone thought that the Soviets were reaping windfalls of great intelligence bonanza's from the West.

And you forget all those reports that say US intelligence services don't have that many people that have Chinese language skills. So how do they recruit people if they can't eve speak the language? So few also means not many agents that are Chinese themselves. So is this about American charm alone winning over Chinese hearts? We saw what that kind of thinking resulted in Iraq when it was thought the Iraqis were going to see Americans as liberators and throw hugs and kisses and roses on the American invader.

And China seems to have a vibrant counterintelligence since the US government demands China to be transparent all the time. Meaning the US needs help in order to know what China is doing. Those US counterintelligence agents seem to be not doing their jobs.

China is totally vulnerable to this type of counterintelligence due to their hunger for technical info from any and every source. Oh, I know there's not a bunch of internet hyped up stories to tell you it (thankfully), but facts is facts.

Vulnerable to something they don't have in the first place. You should watch what you say because now you're saying Chinese espionage is successful in obtaining techincal info because they wouldn't be vulnerable to being denied it if they didn't have it. Meaning also US counterintelligence isn't as successful as you believe. And if it's so easily obtainable, the US would be in no position to deny it.
 
Last edited:

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
why I start smelling politics in here??:nono: ???

One more claim of that some other people are more traitorous or non-traitorous and I start taking narrow minded view on that and interprepate it as racism...

Gollevainen Super moderator
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
You never hear about signals intelligence (signit). However the powers of the world are still as busy as ever trying to read each others transmissions. The NSA takes care of that in the US with listening posts in Iceland and England (I don't know the locations of any others but I'm certain there are more.)

However I don't really have much to say because signit operations are so secret around the world. Just about 20 years ago was the information about Allied ULTRA activites during WWII released. I still haven't heard anything about code breaking during the Cold War so it will probably be a long time before we hear anything about code breaking now.
 

wdl1976

New Member
While in the topic, but I am not sure whether I am a bit political or not? (If I do please forgive me)

I would say now the biggest propaganda machine in the world is actually Hollywood.

What u guys think?
 

The_Zergling

Junior Member
While in the topic, but I am not sure whether I am a bit political or not? (If I do please forgive me)

I would say now the biggest propaganda machine in the world is actually Hollywood.

What u guys think?

Not particularly political, just a bit off topic, I suppose. But I'll humor the topic.

If you're saying that they're influential because their movies are shown all over the world and that they create a fantasy world that many immerse themselves in, I would say that they are, but if you're referring to a unified "agenda" I would be hard pressed to find one.
 
Top