Trade War with China

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Klon

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China’s benchmark stock index is now 50 percent below its bubble-high in 2015, and there’s little sign the selling will end any time soon.

An intensifying trade war with the U.S., signs of
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domestic demand for cars to air-conditioners, and increasing
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the yuan will weaken past the key level of 7 per dollar are all weighing on stock market sentiment. Efforts by the securities regulator to talk up the market
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investors on Monday: the Shanghai Composite Index tumbled another 1.5 percent to a four-year low, cementing its position as 2018’s worst global benchmark.

China’s government has pushed through efforts to open its markets to the world, gaining a foothold on major global benchmarks as a consequence. While this should be positive in the longer term, increasing the presence of institutional investors who tend to be less speculative, foreigners have turned into record
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. A look at a 12-year chart of the Shanghai Composite shows buying and holding is hardly a rewarding strategy in the market, which remains dominated by retail investors.

China’s stock market is now worth $5.4 trillion, less than Japan’s, and only $517 billion above Hong Kong’s. In 2015, the difference was as much as $4.8 trillion.

I'm interested in seeing how much further it can fall "without impacting the real economy", as the popular theory goes.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
I'm interested in seeing how much further it can fall "without impacting the real economy", as the popular theory goes.

I'm sure it'll have some impact because in the end it's money. In the US the stock market has more impact in the US economy because you have large employing corporations investing their employees' retirement savings into the stock market. In China the stock market is more akin to gambling. The economy doesn't go up and down based on how much gamblers win or lose in the day.
 

B.I.B.

Captain
I'm sure it'll have some impact because in the end it's money. In the US the stock market has more impact in the US economy because you have large employing corporations investing their employees' retirement savings into the stock market. In China the stock market is more akin to gambling. The economy doesn't go up and down based on how much gamblers win or lose in the day.

I don't understand that. I think most Chinese would do what a lot of other people around the world do.If one cashes out with $30000 more than you had when you went in, there' the inclination to have a little spend on something one always wanted.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
I don't understand that. I think most Chinese would do what a lot of other people around the world do.If one cashes out with $30000 more than you had when you went in, there' the inclination to have a little spend on something one always wanted.
There is no transparency/quality data about companies, so the stock market is more similar to a casino, than long term investment.
For insiders it is better than a casino, for outsiders it is worst : )
 

Faithlock

New Member
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I don't understand that. I think most Chinese would do what a lot of other people around the world do.If one cashes out with $30000 more than you had when you went in, there' the inclination to have a little spend on something one always wanted.

China's stock market is exactly like a casino. It is an excellent way to transfer money from players who like to gamble to "the house". In this case, "the house" is the company insiders and corrupt officials. It doesn't have to be high company officials or high government officials. Any low or mid level officials in the company or government can take advantage of this. It is extremely pervasive and extremely easy to participate.

China had been trying to get rid of all the insider tradings. Multiple stock market regulators came and go, none of them have much success.
 

LesAdieux

Junior Member
Treasury Secretary Mnuchin: I won't be 'losing any sleep' if China dumps US bonds in retaliation over trade
  • Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin says he isn't worried about China selling U.S. Treasurys in retaliation over trade.
  • "If they decide they don't want to hold them, there are other buyers," he says.
  • Some have speculated that China could hit back at U.S. tariffs by selling a huge chunk of the more than $1 trillion of U.S. Treasury bonds it holds.

"If they decide they don't want to hold them, there are other buyers," Mnuchin told CNBC's Geoff Cutmore. "And, obviously, that would be very costly for them to do."

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the former Goldman excutive is contradicting himself here: if you have other buyers, then the treasury yield should remain stable; if it's very costly for China to sell, then the treasury price will crush and the yield will spike.

the current boom is largely driven by the massive QE generated asset price bubble, the bubble make people feel wealthier and spend more which helps corporations' financial reports which in turn drives the market even higher, this is the so-called “income effect".

the treasury yield underlies all asset class, crushing it, you'll take the floor away.

 
now I read in Facebook
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"Op-ed: Trade war cannot stop China from moving forward

(By Zhong Xuanli)

The trade war couldn’t stop the development of China’s economy, many world renowned scholars, mainstream media and prominent organizations expressed their optimism on China’s future, under the background that the US government initiated the trade war against China and escalated tensions this year.

They believe that China has the ability to safeguard its own interests.

One of the “charges” that the US accuses against China is the so-called intellectual property theft. However, the “charge” is indeed groundless.

Former US Treasury Secretary and economist Lawrence Summers noted that the leadership of Chinese companies in some technologies was not a result of the theft from the US, rebutting the premise behind US President Donald Trump’s trade actions against China.

He believed China's technological progress came from terrific entrepreneurs who had got the benefit of huge government investments in basic science, and an educational system that's privileging excellence, concentrating on science and technology.

“That's where their leadership is coming from, not from taking a stake in some US company,” Summers said.

Honorary professor Hiroshi Yoshikawa of the University of Tokyo commented that the US was worried that it might be exceeded by China in terms of GDP, citing an estimate by the Financial Times that Chinese economy would overtake that of the US in about a decade.

Joseph Stiglitz, the Nobel Prize winning economist and professor at Columbia University, remarked that the US had already been lost when facing a country like China that might replace it in multiple fields, including the most advanced.

“Will July 6, 2018, turn out to be a date of economic infamy?” The question was raised by the Washington Post in one of its articles.

The date, which marked the coming of the first round of US tariffs on China, was considered an equivalent of June 17, 1930, the day when US President Herbert Hoover signed the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act. This act led to the rising trade protectionism and deteriorated great depression, and it was also an indirect reason for the outburst of the World War II.

Many international observers have noticed that what the US aims at with its tariff plan is the “Made in China 2025” initiative.

The US didn’t want to see a rising China in the technological sector, said Zheng Yongnian, director of the East Asian Institute, National University of Singapore. He noted that the US hoped to at least slow down China’s modernization so the latter would fall into the “middle income trap” or go back to “impoverished socialism”.

However, the US efforts to stop China’s steps in high technologies are not able to hinder the development of China’s scientific innovation capability, competitiveness of Chinese tech firms or the reserves of scientific personnel.

“They are deluded if they see China as ever dependent on Western innovation. The country I have come to know is investing in research and knowledge as never before,” said President of the University of Sheffield Keith Burnett.

China had taught a billion people to read and write, and built a modern infrastructure of roads and high-speed trains, he noted, adding that China’s innovation base was now roughly equal to that in the US.

The International Monetary Fund (IMF), in the 2018 Article IV Consultation report issued on July 26, said that the direct macro impact of tariffs announced to date appeared limited. The report was generally positive about China’s economic performance, giving an optimistic forecast on the sustainability of China’s economic development.

As China is continuously deepening reform and opening up, shifting its economy to one that relies on domestic demand and is driven by innovation, and diversifying its foreign trade structure, the trade war initiated by the US will not be able to reverse the developing trend of Chinese economy.

UK expert on Chinese affairs Hugh Peyman pointed out in his newly published book “China's Change: The Greatest Show on Earth”, that those who doubted the Chinese mode often misjudged the complicated reality faced by China, the second largest economy in the world, and ignored China’s ability of adjustment and continual reforming.

He believed that China would finally find its own path as long as it continued to reform when facing challenges.

Global analysts explain that the US initiated the trade war out of the strategic consideration to comprehensively contain China’s rapid development. However, most of the experts hold that there is no sufficient evidence to prove that additional tariffs could stop the economic progress of China.

“The fate of China, and its role in the world, is now in the hands of the Chinese and their leaders,” noted Kenneth Rogoff, professor of economics and public policy at Harvard University. “The globalization train has went a long distance since it left the station, and the idea that one can turn it back is utterly naïve,” he further added.

China, holding the banner of globalization, is winning more and more friends. However, the US, in the meantime, has lost its reputation in the world due to its protectionist trade policies.

Philip Stephens, associate editor and chief political commentator of the Financial Times said that the US was already surrendering advantage to its rival in the inevitable global contest between these two great powers.

Any short term pain should be set against the immense strategic gain for China flowing from Trump’s worldview, and Trump was progressively dismantling the pillars of the US-led international order, he remarked.

China’s long-term strategic goals are clear enough, and Trump has set about this task with gusto, the associate editor added."

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AndrewS

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Beijing must win the hearts of US businesspeople amid trade war, China policy adviser says

‘Trump would love to see [China] make trouble for US firms,’ economist Fan Gang, an ex-member of the central bank’s monetary policy committee, said at Tsinghua University


Beijing must not launch retaliatory attacks against American firms or US business operations in China, despite US President Donald Trump’s threat to slap further punitive tariffs on Chinese goods and restrict Chinese investment in the US, a Chinese economist and government adviser has warned.

“Trump would love to see [China] make trouble for US firms,” Fan Gang, a former member of the monetary policy committee of the People’s Bank of China, said in a speech at Tsinghua University in Beijing on Wednesday.

“The business community is now the only voice [in the US] that may speak for China,” Fan said. “If we target them, then we may really lose the trade war.”

Fan, a leader in an economists club founded by Vice-Premier Liu He, said that rather than focus on punitive responses to the Trump administration’s trade action, “we should further open up our market and create a fair business environment. In the long run, it’s good for China.”

Known as a liberal economist, Fan’s tone was soft in comparison with the trade war rhetoric that has come out of China’s official media since Trump began imposing punitive tariffs on Chinese goods six months ago.

But Fan’s suggestion that China focus on rolling out the red carpet for US companies and executives seemed in line with the Chinese government’s recent responses to Washington’s escalatory trade actions.

In addition to vowing to slash tariffs on US imports after Trump’s imposed punitive duties on Chinese products, Beijing has pledged to further open up its domestic market and protect the interests of foreign businesses in China, including US firms.
...
Although Fan spoke as an economist, his views also reflected a school of thought within Beijing that boldly favours China and the US reaching a compromise to reduce the intensity of the trade tensions.

“It is not just about trade imbalance,” Fan said. “In the past, we could ease the tensions by buying a few more Boeing aircraft. Not now.”

Yet, Fan also called the trade war part of a bigger plan by Washington to contain China’s rise.

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now I read
China says trade measures on sugar imports in line with WTO rules
Xinhua| 2018-10-18 01:36:45
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China's commerce ministry said Wednesday that the country's management measures on sugar imports were in line with the World Trade Organization (WTO) rules.

The ministry made the remarks in response to Brazil's opening of a consultation process at the WTO over China's trade measures on sugar imports.

China has received Brazil's consultation request, and will properly handle it according to the WTO dispute settlement procedures, the ministry said in a statement on its website.

Sugar is one of China's major farm produces and concerns the economic interests of more than 40 million sugar farmers, according to the statement.

Increased sugar imports has caused serious damage to the domestic sugar industry, and thus the Chinese government, at the request of its domestic industry, has adopted safeguard measures on sugar imports according to law, it said.

The tariff-rate quotas on imports of sugar products were among trade measures that China clearly acknowledged to retain when it joined the WTO, and China's automatic import license management of commodities was necessary to effectively monitor commodity imports.

"The management measures China has adopted on sugar imports comply with China's WTO commitments and are in line with the WTO rules," it said.
 
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