Trade War with China
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People are driven by greed while at the same time not driven by greed in the family, fine I can accept that but I cannot accept you reducing the complex topic of human nature down to greed, thats just lazy. No one will work for free for the benefit of others except for the entire working class of every nation works for the benefit of the capitalist class, and while not for free, they work for a a fraction of the value they produce, at the pleasure of the capitalist, and ultimately the value they produce is reinvested back into the mechanisms to oppress the working class. This is even worse that working for free. Marxists do not advocate for altruistically working for free to benefit society, the utopian socialists did that. We say that it is in the interest of the working class (and to an extent the capitalist class as well) to move to a system where there is no distinction between worker and capitalist. Where the owner of the farms and factories are the very people that labour there. We are against free riding and it is the capitalist class that is eating the free lunch.
I'm talking about scientific findings here. Why didn't Newton patent his discoveries? Imagine if you had to pay 10 pence every time you wanted to compute force. Newton's estate would be filthy rich. There's plenty of natural motivation to boost productivity for the sake of working less.
Middle class is a bourgeois economic term designed to segregate lower and upper parts of the proletariat. See Victor Yakovenko's work on modeling income in the US and UK to see that there is 2 class society, working class and capitalist class. Trickle down economics doesn't work, don't advocate for that garbage in China.
They are dirt poor but live longer healthier lives than both americans and Chinese. That's what I call efficiency, all countries should learn from their example.
Planning distribution and production are the same problem with the same solution. We plug Ford, agribusiness, intel, etc into AWS elastic 5 year plan and red america sweeps the world. In China you can use Ali yun. Further more central planning does not need to account for the minute details you described and market economies certainly do not account for those things. I agree no algorithm can predict human needs but capitalists are certainly trying to do so, so much for efficiency and rational allocation of resources.
Incorrect. Look at what is happening in capitalist countries. Advertisement firms want to turn people in automatons that consume (their products). Intellectual rent-seeking companies like google, fb etc. want to commodify every aspect of social interaction and lock culture behind a paywall for the sake of their own profits. It is capitalism works towards turning you into someone with no hopes and dreams outside of consumption. It is capitalism that works to turn every action in human life into something that creates a few bucks. The consequence is the break down of society, families, national strength etc. This is the result of rational capitalists doing what is in their self interest, making more profit. Advertisement and property rights are not the tools that will create liberty or prosperity. Contrast that to communism which seeks to give people ownership over their work/workplace, their government, their culture. Granted this does not always produce the best outcomes, look at how much hard work the Chinese government put into developing Tibetan and Uygur culture, probably better off sinicizing them.
You present a description of communism highly inaccurate and taken straight from liberal propaganda. You also expect a centrally planned economy to be some god that answers to everyone's needs. Neither Marxist theory nor any socialist state advocates for the kinds of policies you claim communists advocate for nor do they claim to be omnipotent systems. The goal of these states is to ensure that all citizens are working and working productively for the benefit of society as a whole rather than a small part of society at the expense of the general health and well-being of the state and citizenry as happens under capitalism. I suggest you read or reread Marx, Lenin, Stalin, etc. Again, we do not ask people to work for free. We want to END the possibility of leeching off the work of others. And it is in the selfish interest of the working class to do so. "He who does not work, neither shall he eat".
Jura The idiot
General
and oops, I reported again
Well I didn't see this when writing my other response. If you're a social democrat that's fine. I think social democracy is wonderful at raising living standards and political power of the working class while simultaneously destroying the rate of profit and bringing the capitalist economy to a halt. It is the perfect set up for revolution. The only thing that remains is organizing the worker to overcome the reaction from capital when that time comes. The workers of the UK failed in the 1980s but there will be other opportunities.
It might look off topic but it is related to the future course of China's economy with regard to this trade war. Right now China has a capitalist mode of production. It also has the problem of producing way more than it needs. This means China needs to sell that product in other countries to keep it's economy going. The US was the default destination for this excess product, with the trade war,but really it started with the TPP, the Chinese State realizes the need to diversify to other countries, hence one belt one road. China will also need to develop import substitutes (made in china 2025) for products it can no longer get from elsewhere. Assuming everything goes well in terms of geopolitics, this is one way to solve overcapacity while remaining in the capitalist mode of production. But first, there's no guarantee this will succeed.The US could attack China's trade partners in Africa for example. That would reduce exports again from China. Secondly remaining in capitalism leaves China open to other types of capitalist crises, we can look at the west for examples. Third, a significant portion of the Chinese labour force would be working to make things for citizens of other countries. There's nothing wrong with this on paper but plenty of work needs to be done within China and needs to be done fast. I think allocating more labour to fixing environmental issues will give more benefit to the Chinese people. Fourth, China will most likely also increase domestic consumption which means more unproductive activities like advertising and more service jobs which ultimately don't push a country forwards industrially or scientifically. Fifth, more domestic consumption means Chinese wages will have to go up to consume all those goods and services. As a result China will have to export low wage jobs elsewhere as those industries will no longer be profitable (key in capitalism). At this point China might as well become a US or British Empire. An imperialist power using the labour of other countries to sustain the life of it's own citizens. We can also see the current direction the US is headed in to see where an imperial power ends up. Not the situation I would want for China.
This trade war is also a good opportunity to adopt more centrally planned economy and recollectivize industries. Profitable industries would be run as public utilities for the citizenry and unprofitable industries (over capacity ones) can be shut down and their labour force moved to more important tasks. This approach does not exclude trade with other countries or projects like one belt one road but unlike staying in capitalism, China does not require those projects succeed. It would also provide a good excuse to purge any reactionary elements that could potentially betray the country be they in the private sector or in the state. In the end it comes down to making the economy more resilient to outside interference and ensuring that Chinese people are engaged in productive work.
The same problems and challenges that face China in the trade war also affect the US. The US needs the trade, for the products but also for propping up it's currency. The rate of profit in america is pretty low which is why you see investment going into speculation rather than into productive sectors of the economy. Government subsidies are often a requirement for opening new factories. These subsidies ultimately come from the tax payer which due to the way laws work in the US are the well to do parts of the working class. If the US alienates enough trade partners that will also reduce international demand for dollars and weaken the military side of US empire which needs those dollars. Ultimately this set up for an excellent economic crises which will also be a good opportunity to push for socialism in america. Perhaps americans will realize that if their taxes are being used to fund private businesses they might as well take over those businesses. At the very least establishing a social democracy will both help working class americans and allow potential for future revolution. A long shot but worth the struggle.
So, you saying that in China the coastal per capita GDP as high as say USA average, but the internal regions pulling it down, and they have to develop that to bring up the level to the US average ?
Your arithmetic has this result. Just reminder.
: D
Have you got any source for it?
Jura The idiot
General
since I looked at it, I post (actually had to make a screenshot or just the map, not the map with numbers, would show through wiki):
Actually, it is very relevant for China.
The China - (USA / Europe) transfer trade developed technologies an processes to China, making it possible for them a fast growth, independently from the cultural/corporate/scientific development.
Good example is the semiconductor industry.
It was developed in the USA from nothing, by countless small company solving all problem independently, one by one.
The current quality and cost of semis is the result of those countless solved problems, , each solved by the right person with the necessary resources.
The government did nothing else just provided the orders thought a competitive bidding process for the products, and provided same framework for the faster information distribution.
However in centrally planned manner the biggest issue is who will solve the milliard problems turning up during the implementation ?
How you can make sure about that the selected company/person for the given task will have the capability to found out why the 4th exposure creating defects on certain product seemingly randomly?
And the solution must be found by someone with the skill, experience and resources.
In centrally planned manner these are not controlled y the same person, OR not properly distributed within the organisation/economy.
And there come usually
However without those solutions the ultimate efficiency of the system will be inferior compared to the US/European ones.
So, if there is no more information/skill/technology flow from USA/Europe to China then we will see the real capability and performance of the Chinese economy, and the deepness of the changes.
The China - (USA / Europe) transfer trade developed technologies an processes to China, making it possible for them a fast growth, independently from the cultural/corporate/scientific development.
Good example is the semiconductor industry.
It was developed in the USA from nothing, by countless small company solving all problem independently, one by one.
The current quality and cost of semis is the result of those countless solved problems, , each solved by the right person with the necessary resources.
The government did nothing else just provided the orders thought a competitive bidding process for the products, and provided same framework for the faster information distribution.
However in centrally planned manner the biggest issue is who will solve the milliard problems turning up during the implementation ?
How you can make sure about that the selected company/person for the given task will have the capability to found out why the 4th exposure creating defects on certain product seemingly randomly?
And the solution must be found by someone with the skill, experience and resources.
In centrally planned manner these are not controlled y the same person, OR not properly distributed within the organisation/economy.
And there come usually
However without those solutions the ultimate efficiency of the system will be inferior compared to the US/European ones.
So, if there is no more information/skill/technology flow from USA/Europe to China then we will see the real capability and performance of the Chinese economy, and the deepness of the changes.
manqiangrexue
Brigadier
God damn! Your reading comprehension is really really bad! It's a disaster for your ability to "debate!" That's not what he said at all... All your imagination, including the "arithmetic."
LOL You are just imagining problems for China, aren't you?
Someone else could easily say that central planning is much more efficient in China than US/EU style because in China, teams work together to solve different steps of a problem while in the West, they waste resources competing over each other for each step, causing the process to be much slower, more expensive and more tedious. And the facts support this, because technological growth in the West is much slower than it is in China, for many many reasons not at all limited to the feel-good "They copied us" excuse that Westerners like to default to.
Every company in the world, when faced with a large project, separates its employees into teams and assigns then different parts of the project to be pieced together at completion, which is like China's central planning on a much smaller scale. No company uses the Western model that you tout, by telling all of its employees that they should all work independently and the first guy who completes the project by himself gets all of the pay for everyone. Chinese model is much superior to Western one, and only the Chinese government has the control needed to implement it.
The Westerners that are more intelligent than yourself realize China's efficiency, which is why they fear the Made-in-China-2025 government initiative and want China to stop it rather than goad China to waste resources by furthering it's "inefficient" central planning. It is only people like you who desperately seek comfort in self-praises of "efficiency" as you see other people surpass you.
First of all, your premise is broken; when will there be "no more information/skill/technology flow from USA/Europe to China?" When will the global economy close to such a state? And secondly, it is obvious by China advances in many areas that has already surpassed the West (super-computing, quantum physics, etc...) that China would continue to do just fine.
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You need to read the statements and look at the data.
No, coastal GDP per capita in China is still significantly lower than the US average.
GDP per capita in the Chinese interior is much lower still, and it is here where most of the infrastructure construction and urbanisation is happening.
The Chinese interior (where most of the population resides) is still being built out, and is more equivalent to developing Japan in the 1960s/70s
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