Trade War with China

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vincent

Grumpy Old Man
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Moderator - World Affairs
@Hendrik_2000 ,
Investments must be appropriate for the level of productivity that population is in. I believe if you look at the similar GDP per capita for Japan, the Chinese have made far more investments in roads etc. There are also a lot of overcapacity, for example, in steel making and construction.

I call the productivity argument pure BS. Are you telling me a burger flipper in NY is 7 times more productive than the one in Sichuan?
Why do the Roman built so much roads? Other than military benefits, the roads enabled the flow of people and goods, benefited the economies greatly. Without good infrastructures, apples grown in Xinjiang will not be available in the east coast
 

canniBUS

Junior Member
Registered Member
I call the productivity argument pure BS. Are you telling me a burger flipper in NY is 7 times more productive than the one in Sichuan?
Why do the Roman built so much roads? Other than military benefits, the roads enabled the flow of people and goods, benefited the economies greatly. Without good infrastructures, apples grown in Xinjiang will not be available in the east coast
Of course the NY burger flipper is 7x more productive. He has 7x the debt!
 
now
US tech firms appeal to the White House not to impose tariffs on IT products
2018-09-08 13:26 GMT+8
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Cisco, Dell, Hewlett-Packard and Juniper Networks made a last-minute appeal to the Trump administration to request that key products not be included in the list of tariffs on 200 billion US dollars' worth of Chinese exports to the United States. The current US business community is increasingly anxious about the escalation of the China-US trade war.

These four tech firms pointed out in a letter to the US Trade Representative (USTR) that adding tariffs on network equipment will increase the price paid by consumers and cause a delay in investment, which may lead to job losses for workers and diminishing dividends to shareholders.

"If USTR were to impose a 10-25 percent additional duty on networking products and accessories, it would cause broad, disproportionate economic harm to US interests, including our companies and US workers, our customers, US consumers and broader US economic and strategic priorities,” wrote their letter to the USTR Robert Lighthizer on Thursday.

Despite concerns over the impact of the Trump administration's trade policy on their own businesses, few leaders of large US companies have so far expressed their opposition directly and openly.

But Cisco and its partners feel the need to talk about the dangers that tariffs pose to their businesses in that this wave of tariff list targets many components and finished products critical to cloud data centers, and these centers are at the heart of today's digital infrastructure.
 
now noticed the tweet
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China announced Friday that it will raise the export tax rebates for products such as mechanical and electrical goods as well as cultural products to 9-16 pct. The increase will take effect on Sept 15.

DmiRjwaU4AA7k67.jpg
 
yes, this thread:
China's foreign trade up 9.1 pct in first eight months
Xinhua| 2018-09-08 12:04:06
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China's goods trade went up 9.1 percent year on year to 19.43 trillion yuan (about 2.85 trillion U.S. dollars) in the first eight months of this year, customs data showed Saturday.

Exports rose 5.4 percent year on year in the January-August period to 10.34 trillion yuan while imports grew 13.7 percent to 9.09 trillion yuan, resulting in a trade surplus of 1.25 trillion yuan, which narrowed by 31.3 percent, according to the General Administration of Customs.
 

Ultra

Junior Member
This is old but significant:

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This paragraph in particular :

"Trump still seems to think that this trade war is going to lead to an easy win. Earlier this week, Trump
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: "When I came we were heading in a certain direction that was going to allow China to be bigger than us in a very short period of time. That's not going to happen anymore." Trump's attitude is being interpreted in Beijing as a sign that Trump doesn't just want to equalize a trade imbalance, but instead wants to stop China's growth altogether.
That has rankled Beijing, with
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to the start of a new Cold War."


This lays bare of Trump's thinking and rationale.
Trump is playing a zero-sum winner takes all game. While China still wants to negotiate.

Trump won't stop until the complete economic destruction of China.

This is no longer the worst case scenerio, as it will get far worse than this.
What Beijing has to do now is to use this as the BASELINE for its calculus. It will get worse as Trump continue to bring in more under-handed tactics to the table.

And don't count on Trump exiting the office will change American strategy on China, it has been laid out by the CIA, NSA and the DoD that China is now "long-term strategic competitor". In another word, even if Democrat is to win the next election it will continue this trend.
 
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Quickie

Colonel
That's also because america reports completely unproductive activities as adding to GDP. I hope you don't mean to imply that interest payments on debts from working class americans actually makes the country wealthier. It reduces the purchasing power of americans and hurts the real economy for the benefit of wall street. Moving up the value chain is fine, but financialization is a road to ruin.

What I meant to say was that energy production and consumption is not necessary reflected in the GDP growth number. Actually, by the measure of electrical production and consumption, China is doing much better than the U.S.A (I think, the figure now is almost 2 to 1) compared to what their GDP numbers have shown in the past decade or so.
 

SilentObserver

Junior Member
Registered Member
And a good example is U.S.A. whose growth in electrical energy production and consumption is way smaller than her reported GDP growth rate. In some years, the figure even went backwards.
For outsiders to gauge an economy's growth they can use a composite based on available data since they don't have access to data inputs for creating gdp numbers. Changes in the economy can be gauged through the changes in a relevant composite. When Li Keqiang was the party secretary of Liaoning province, he used a composite of railway cargo volume, electricity consumption and total loans disbursed by banks in Liaoning as a gauge of the region's economy.

Some non-Chinese economists or economic observers had used this composite or a variation of it to analyze the whole nation's economic growth. The problem with this is that it doesn't account for China's regional specializations. Liaoning along with the rest of the NE provinces, Inner Mongolia and Hebei is SOE, heavy industries and mining orientated, it is different from Guangdong, Shanghai, Jiangsu, or Zhejiang's economic composition. Or the changing nature of China's economic structure within regions.

Composite_Index_of_National_Capability.svg.png

This in my view is the same fault with using indexes like "Composite Index of National Capability" by itself to determine a holistic national strength. It was created in 1963 to measure national capabilities and included variables of: total population ratio, urban population ratio, iron&steel production ratio, primary energy consumption ratio, military expenditure ratio, and military personnel ratio. With this composite we can see an implosion of Russia, sharp rise of China beyond America in the year 2000 and stagnation of America's share of the world strength. Does this reflect the realities of great powers we see today? Not exactly, I would say no and this is a misleading chart. The composite consists of variables that were relevant during the industrial era. Since the 1960s we have entered into a new era, the post industrial era where raw numbers in population, steel production, energy consumption, and expenditures are not all that determines national strength, they are still relevant but less so today.

China's national capabilities has not surpassed America's as the chart suggests because in this new economy there is substantial value generated in the intangible and invisible realm for economy, military, and politics. Modern military capabilities reflect the capabilities of our civilian economy, the military sphere is the pinnacle of the economy's capabilities arranged systematically. If such an industrial era composite is not relevant for military analysis, it also isn't relevant for the new age economy. Transition times is especially bad for old composites, they no longer reflect the direction of growth while latching on the old industries. The conclusion one makes based on old metrics becomes increasingly irrelevant.

As any economy goes through transition, we must constantly question the relevance of the underlying variables.
 
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