054/A FFG Thread II

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
So 32 are built/launched, 28 commissioned, 4 in various stages of outfitting , looking forward for 054B 20 are rumored to be built
Rough calc 14 DDG(Type 52C+52D) + 9 DDG(various 51,52, Sov,)
Total 42 first line combatant and 9 second string combatant
18 Yuan +12 Song=30 first class sub
40 Type 56 ASW and Patrol vessel
2 Carrier
Conclusion bigger than JSDF navy. The dream of ADm Li Hua Qing finally realized
China is on the way to reclaim her position as preeminent naval power in Asia
Liu Huaqing

Liu Huaqing
刘华清
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Liu Huaqing in 1955
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of the
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In office
State Commission
:
28 March 1993 – 5 March 1998
Party Commission:
November 1989 – 18 September 1997
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,
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,
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1 October 1916
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,
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, China
Died 14 January 2011 (aged 94)
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Liu Huaqing
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劉華清
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刘华清
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: 刘华清; October 1, 1916
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– January 14, 2011) was a general of the Chinese
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. He served as Commander of the
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from 1982 through 1988, and is considered to have greatly contributed to the modernization of the Chinese Navy.

He had outlined a three-step process by which China would have a navy of global reach by the second half of the 21st century. In step one, from 2000 to 2010, China would develop a naval force that could operate up to the
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. In step two, from 2010 to 2020, China's navy would become a regional force capable of projecting force to the
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. In step three, to be achieved by 2040, China would possess a blue-water navy with aircraft carriers as its centerpiece.
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He was a strong advocate of the
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program.

Liu encouraged technological innovation within China that would increase naval capabilities, but he also advocated large foreign purchases. During the 1960s and 1970s, Liu was responsible for naval research and development before heading national military research.
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He was also the top commander of the
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Last edited:
Rough calc 14 DDG(Type 52C+52D) + 9 DDG(various 51,52, Sov,)
Total 42 first line combatant and 9 second string combatant
18 Yuan +12 Song=30 first class sub
40 Type 56 ASW and Patrol vessel
2 Carrier

Some of the second string DDG are also significantly more capable (based on virtue of hull size and/or senors) and equally or more advanced than the 054A as well! Particularly, 051C are almost as capable as 052C except for one glaring drawback, while others are in general technologically on par with (after upgrades) 054A, but larger, with bigger missile loads and also faster. Only the type 52 can be considered a noncompetetive or near obsolete platform, while the 051B directly succeeding it is almost exactly equal to a 054A in terms of capabilities.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
So 32 are built/launched, 28 commissioned, 4 in various stages of outfitting , looking forward for 054B 20 are rumored to be built
Rough calc 14 DDG(Type 52C+52D) + 9 DDG(various 51,52, Sov,)
Total 42 first line combatant and 9 second string combatant
18 Yuan +12 Song=30 first class sub
40 Type 56 ASW and Patrol vessel
2 Carrier
Conclusion bigger than JSDF navy. The dream of ADm Li Hua Qing finally realized
I wouldn't call the Song a "first class sub". IMO it would best be classified as "semi-modern", or if you're a pessimist, "semi-obsolete". And as FriedRice said of the 9 "second-string" combatants only one would be considered second-string (the 052). The others have all been or will all be converted to fully modern warships. So my version would be:

51 modern surface combatants (1x 051B, 2x 051C, 2x 052B, 6x 052C, 8x 052D, 4x Sovs, 28x 054A), 13 semi-modern surface combatant (1x 052, 10x 053H3, 2x 054), 19 obsolete surface combatants (6x 051, 13x 053)
18 modern SSKs (Yuan), 12 semi-modern SSKs (Song), 15 obsolete SSKs (Ming)

In sheer numbers the PLAN has been bigger than the JMSDF for years, but in overall capability I would still judge them approximately the same. We won't see the PLAN definitively pulling ahead of the JMSDF in terms of overall capability until some time in the next decade.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
No one counted 12 Kilos? 877 maybe considered semi-modern, but 636 should still be modern.

As for JSMDF, you got six, now seven, destroyers that are Aegis, if you are counting the still being fitted Maya. But the rest of the Japanese destroyers are closer to frigates when compared to other nations. 5000 to 6800 ton Akizuki and Asahi class, have 32 VLS, 8 ASMs --- these are more like Type 054B equivalents to me. Hatsuyuki and Asagari class destroyers displaces less than Type 054A, and should be regarded as obsolete. Takanami and Murasame class destroyers are another bunch of 4500 ton plus displacement ships with 32 VLS and 8 ASMs, so the basic ship outline is the same as the Type 054A, you are left to comparing electronics and missile fitting.

Only Aegis destroyers, which is seven are equipped with SM2. All the other 'destroyers' are equipped with ESSM using MK 48 VLS.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I wouldn't call the Song a "first class sub". IMO it would best be classified as "semi-modern", or if you're a pessimist, "semi-obsolete". And as FriedRice said of the 9 "second-string" combatants only one would be considered second-string (the 052). The others have all been or will all be converted to fully modern warships. So my version would be:

51 modern surface combatants (1x 051B, 2x 051C, 2x 052B, 6x 052C, 8x 052D, 4x Sovs, 28x 054A), 13 semi-modern surface combatant (1x 052, 10x 053H3, 2x 054), 19 obsolete surface combatants (6x 051, 13x 053)
18 modern SSKs (Yuan), 12 semi-modern SSKs (Song), 15 obsolete SSKs (Ming)

In sheer numbers the PLAN has been bigger than the JMSDF for years, but in overall capability I would still judge them approximately the same. We won't see the PLAN definitively pulling ahead of the JMSDF in terms of overall capability until some time in the next decade.

I'm a bit surprised he chose not to include the Kilos in the SSK count.
 

Janiz

Senior Member
No one counted 12 Kilos? 877 maybe considered semi-modern, but 636 should still be modern.

As for JSMDF, you got six, now seven, destroyers that are Aegis, if you are counting the still being fitted Maya. But the rest of the Japanese destroyers are closer to frigates when compared to other nations. 5000 to 6800 ton Akizuki and Asahi class, have 32 VLS, 8 ASMs --- these are more like Type 054B equivalents to me. Hatsuyuki and Asagari class destroyers displaces less than Type 054A, and should be regarded as obsolete. Takanami and Murasame class destroyers are another bunch of 4500 ton plus displacement ships with 32 VLS and 8 ASMs, so the basic ship outline is the same as the Type 054A, you are left to comparing electronics and missile fitting.

Only Aegis destroyers, which is seven are equipped with SM2. All the other 'destroyers' are equipped with ESSM using MK 48 VLS.
It's 2018 and people are still comparing warship's capabilities by the number of VLS...

For me electronics, training and capability to use warfare to it's fullest extenet are much more meaningful than number of VLS cells.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
It's 2018 and people are still comparing warship's capabilities by the number of VLS...

For me electronics, training and capability to use warfare to it's fullest extenet are much more meaningful than number of VLS cells.

Not a problem with the PLAN either.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
I'm a bit surprised he chose not to include the Kilos in the SSK count.
I'm not sure, but TBH I wasn't trying to be comprehensive about it either, as I also did not include carriers, DDHs, corvettes, and SSNs. But a more complete list would be:

CHINESE ORBAT

Carriers (1)
Modern (1): 1x CV-16

Destroyers (27 non-obsolete)
Modern (25): 1x 051B, 2x 051C, 2x 052B, 6x 052C, 10x 052D, 4x Sov (after refit)
Semi-modern (2): 2x 052
Obsolete (6): 6x 051

Frigates (38 non-obsolete)
Modern (28): 28x 054A
Semi-modern (10): 8x 053H3, 2x 054
Obsolete (13): 12x 053

Corvettes (41)
Modern (41): 41x 056/A

SSKs (42 non-obsolete)
Modern (28): 18x Yuan, 10x Kilo/636
Semi-modern (14): 12x Song, 2x Kilo/877
Obsolete (15): 15x Ming

SSNs (6? non-obsolete)
Modern (4?): 4?x Type 093A/B
Semi-modern (2): 2x Type 093
Obsolete (3): 3x Type 091


JAPANESE ORBAT

"Helicopter-carrying destroyers" (4)
Modern (4): 2x Hyuga, 2x Izumi

Destroyers (27)
Modern (27): 2x Atago, 4x Kongou, 1x Asahi, 4x Akizuki, 2x Hatakaze, 5x Takanami, 9x Murasame

Frigates/small destroyers (13)
Modern (8): 8x Asagiri
Semi-modern (5): 5x Hatsuyuki

Corvettes (6)
Modern (6): 6x Abukuma

SSKs (18)
Modern (18): 9x Soryu, 9x Oyashio


As for JSMDF, you got six, now seven, destroyers that are Aegis, if you are counting the still being fitted Maya. But the rest of the Japanese destroyers are closer to frigates when compared to other nations. 5000 to 6800 ton Akizuki and Asahi class, have 32 VLS, 8 ASMs --- these are more like Type 054B equivalents to me. Hatsuyuki and Asagiri class destroyers displaces less than Type 054A, and should be regarded as obsolete. Takanami and Murasame class destroyers are another bunch of 4500 ton plus displacement ships with 32 VLS and 8 ASMs, so the basic ship outline is the same as the Type 054A, you are left to comparing electronics and missile fitting.

Only Aegis destroyers, which is seven are equipped with SM2. All the other 'destroyers' are equipped with ESSM using MK 48 VLS.
It's curious that you somehow transmuted "modern warship" into "Aegis destroyer". There is no requirement for a "modern" warship to have to be an Aegis or Aegis-like ship, destroyer or otherwise. Otherwise you would have to invalidate the 051B, 051C, 052B, and all post-refit 4 Sovs as modern warships, along with every last 054A and 056/A, and I don't see you screaming for those to be classified as substandard or obsolete. Second, there is no requirement for an Aegis or Aegis-like warship to have to carry LRSAMs like the SM-2 to be classified as Aegis-type ships. That is only your own definition which nobody else uses. Aegis-like capability doesn't even require the presence of VLS cells; the first 5 Ticos paired the SPY-1 with Mk 26 rail launchers. As long as you have an ESA and a combat data system that can search, track and either attack or direct another friendly ship to attack hundreds to thousands of targets in all three domains (air, surface, and subsurface), you have an Aegis-like capability.

As far as the JMSDF goes, your count of only 6 to 7 Aegis vessels is way off. In addition to Aegis, the JMSDF also uses ATECS, which is the Japanese version of Aegis. Aegis or ATECS is present on all new JMSDF ships, which means all the Atagos, Kongous, Asahis, Akizukis, Hyugas, and Izumus will have Aegis or ATECS. I count 15 such ships. The PLAN (presumably) has 17 such ships, 6x 052C, 10x 052D, and 1x CV-16. I say presumably because there is no official or even semi-official confirmation of any kind that any of these ships have an Aegis-like capability. I think it would be disingenuous of you to discount ATECS as an Aegis-like system (when it is described exactly as such) when you can't even get any confirmation at all that any PLAN warship has any kind of Aegis-like capability.

As for the Hatakaze, Takanami, and Murasame classes, your attempt to invalidate these ship classes as true destroyers does not stand up to scrutiny. Otherwise you would have to invalidate the 051B, the 052, the 052B, and all 4 Sovs as true destroyers, and I don't see you screaming for that to happen either. All 3 of these JMSDF destroyer classes displace greater than 6,000 tons and have modern radars and armaments that would be lethal in any modern day war scenario. None of them are "4,500 tons" if we are talking max displacement.

Lastly, it is grossly intellectually dishonest to classify the Hatsuyuki and Asagiri classes as "obsolete" in the same manner as the Luda and Jianghu classes, especially when their sensors and armaments are no less effective than modern ships designated for ASW warfare. They may have been built in the 1980's, but they are no less modern than any PLAN ships built up until the mid 2000's. I do agree that they should be classified as frigates due to their size, but this has absolutely no disposition on the combat effectiveness of their sensors or their weapons.
 
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