Chinese Economics Thread

solarz said:

This is ridiculous.

The only way to understand how well a nation is doing is to compare it to other nations. That's the basis of every national metric there exists, from economy to military to crime.



There's a reason corporations issue voluntary recalls, and it's not because they're particularly moral. It's because issuing recalls is cheaper than losing a class action lawsuit.

In order for China to reach the same level of consumer confidence, China needs to implement similarly grave consequences for companies that sell unsafe goods.

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The problem is not the severity of punishment. The perpetrators of the 2008 melamine milk powder scandal were executed. 200 people were arrested in connection with the 2016 Shandong vaccine scandal.

China's problem is something else. China is the only country to have had vaccine scandals in history. There's really no way to sugarcoat this.

Icmer said:

The problem is not the severity of punishment. The perpetrators of the 2008 melamine milk powder scandal were executed. 200 people were arrested in connection with the 2016 Shandong vaccine scandal.

China's problem is something else. China is the only country to have had vaccine scandals in history. There's really no way to sugarcoat this.

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Really?








If companies get financially pummeled every time to sell unsafe products, then they will eventually go bankrupt. If this happens consistently, then the only companies that will thrive are those who take product safety very seriously.

solarz said:

Really?

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If companies get financially pummeled every time to sell unsafe products, then they will eventually go bankrupt. If this happens consistently, then the only companies that will thrive are those who take product safety very seriously.

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All your examples are weak, and none of them can truly be classified as scandals. Actually read each of the links you post next time. Two of them lack evidence, one is behind a totally inaccessible paywall, and two were minor recalls wherein one had a slight decrease in potency and the other was preemptive due to a risk of bacterial contamination (no adverse reactions were reported.)

solarz said:

Companies get financially pummeled every time to sell unsafe products, then they will eventually go bankrupt. If this happens consistently, then the only companies that will thrive are those who take product safety very seriously.

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Did you also miss the fact that these vaccines were distributed to provincial governments? It is quite serious when you cannot even trust government-administered medication. There's not much choice when it comes to who produces the vaccines for your child.

solarz said:

This is ridiculous.

There's a reason corporations issue voluntary recalls, and it's not because they're particularly moral. It's because issuing recalls is cheaper than losing a class action lawsuit.

In order for China to reach the same level of consumer confidence, China needs to implement similarly grave consequences for companies that sell unsafe goods.

Click to expand...

In theory the consumer can do that now in China .But in practice it is something else To begin with in China judicial is not completely independent. They prefer arbitration and settlement between litigant that limit the awarded damage. and there is no such thing litigation happy society with thousand of lawyer chasing ambulance.I am not even sure if there is such thing as class action suit in China


If people can suit large corporation and win ,you think they will stop there?.What happened if there is injustice in city ordnance or bylaw then provincial bylaw?. where it stop?

You know what happened to lawyer who get all the attention Sooner or later they will be put in the cold box. Because today it might be consumer related litigation, Tomorrow it might be political
So your solution is a mute

Icmer said:

All your examples are weak, and none of them can truly be classified as scandals. Actually read each of the links you post next time. Two of them lack evidence, one is behind a totally inaccessible paywall, and two were minor recalls wherein one had a slight decrease in potency and the other was preemptive due to a risk of bacterial contamination (no adverse reactions were reported.)

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So basically, when the facts run counter to your claim, you just change the goal post. What, just because those examples are not exactly like what happened in China, they're inconsequential?

Hendrik_2000 said:

In theory the consumer can do that now in China .But in practice it is something else To begin with in China judicial is not completely independent. They prefer arbitration and settlement between litigant that limit the awarded damage. and there is no such thing litigation happy society with thousand of lawyer chasing ambulance.I am not even sure if there is such thing as class action suit in China

If people can suit large corporation and win ,you think they will stop there?.What happened if there is injustice in city ordnance or bylaw then provincial bylaw?. where it stop?

You know what happened to lawyer who get all the attention Sooner or later they will be put in the cold box. Because today it might be consumer related litigation, Tomorrow it might be political
So your solution is a mute

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Sounds like you don't know much about China at all.

solarz said:

So basically, when the facts run counter to your claim, you just change the goal post. What, just because those examples are not exactly like what happened in China, they're inconsequential?



Sounds like you don't know much about China at all.

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I am not moving goal posts because it is widely accepted that vaccines have an impeccable record of safety outside of China. Anti-vaxxers regularly spin recalls or adverse reactions with a spurious link to the vaccine itself as "scandals" and proof of the inherent danger of vaccines, and this line of argument has been debunked time and time again. It is remarkable that vaccine administration worldwide has gone as smoothly as it has through the past century. However, it is simply fact that there exists no similar precedent elsewhere for what occurred in China regarding false vaccines.

I must also add that vaccine recalls have never been motivated by problems anywhere close to the scale of the vaccine scandals in China. The examples you chose are about as bad it gets.

Icmer said:

I am not moving goal posts because it is widely accepted that vaccines have an impeccable record of safety outside of China. Anti-vaxxers regularly spin recalls or adverse reactions with a spurious link to the vaccine itself as "scandals" and proof of the inherent danger of vaccines, and this line of argument has been debunked time and time again. It is remarkable that vaccine administration worldwide has gone as smoothly as it has through the past century. However, it is simply fact that there exists no similar precedent elsewhere for what occurred in China regarding false vaccines.

I must also add that vaccine recalls have never been motivated by problems anywhere close to the scale of the vaccine scandals in China. The examples you chose are about as bad it gets.

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Examples of fake vaccines around the world:





Quite frankly your statements are disingenuous to the point of being no different than an anti-China .

Icmer said:

I am not moving goal posts because it is widely accepted that vaccines have an impeccable record of safety outside of China. Anti-vaxxers regularly spin recalls or adverse reactions with a spurious link to the vaccine itself as "scandals" and proof of the inherent danger of vaccines, and this line of argument has been debunked time and time again. It is remarkable that vaccine administration worldwide has gone as smoothly as it has through the past century. However, it is simply fact that there exists no similar precedent elsewhere for what occurred in China regarding false vaccines.

I must also add that vaccine recalls have never been motivated by problems anywhere close to the scale of the vaccine scandals in China. The examples you chose are about as bad it gets.

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I'm sorry, what exactly do you think is so special about the Chinese vaccine recalls?

A previous DPT vaccine was recalled due to ineffectivity, but were otherwise harmless. How is that different from my previous examples of vaccines being recalled due to substandard potency?

The current recall centers around forged data over a rabies vaccine. Clinical data fraud occurs in every country, and it's up to the authorities to catch them, which the Chinese institution did here. Again, what's so special about this incident?

solarz said:

I'm sorry, what exactly do you think is so special about the Chinese vaccine recalls?

A previous DPT vaccine was recalled due to ineffectivity, but were otherwise harmless. How is that different from my previous examples of vaccines being recalled due to substandard potency?

The current recall centers around forged data over a rabies vaccine. Clinical data fraud occurs in every country, and it's up to the authorities to catch them, which the Chinese institution did here. Again, what's so special about this incident?

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Substandard potency /=/ complete impotence, which is what occurred in both the 2016 and 2018 scandals in China. Can you find a similar incident elsewhere? The example you chose was a voluntary recall. I admit that montyp165 found possible examples in Uganda and Indonesia, but the discussion seemed to revolve around comparisons to developed nations.